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Author Topic:   Should Canada and the U.S. tolerate an intolerant Islam?
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 127 (772913)
11-20-2015 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by DrJones*
11-20-2015 1:34 PM


Good vs Bad Discrimination
By telling a hunter he can shoot his desired prey (deer) but a Klansman that he cannot shoot his (black people) you are discriminating against the latter.
Now what the fuck is your point?
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by DrJones*, posted 11-20-2015 1:34 PM DrJones* has not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 47 of 127 (772915)
11-20-2015 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Greatest I am
11-20-2015 1:37 PM


I am not. They are not in my land as yet and will not be if I have my way.
So you're retracting your previous statement that you aren't discriminating against them?
Is reciprocity not fair play where you come from?
Of course it isn't, I live in a country governed by the rule of law. Somebody stealing from me does not empower me to then steal from them.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Greatest I am, posted 11-20-2015 1:37 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Greatest I am, posted 11-20-2015 1:50 PM DrJones* has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 48 of 127 (772916)
11-20-2015 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by DrJones*
11-20-2015 1:45 PM


DrJones*
You do not steal back but do look to the authorities for redress.
Same thing as far as reciprocity is concerned.
I retract nothing as I do not know which post you allude to.
Get the quote and I will have a look.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by DrJones*, posted 11-20-2015 1:45 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by DrJones*, posted 11-20-2015 1:56 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 49 of 127 (772917)
11-20-2015 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Greatest I am
11-20-2015 1:50 PM


Get the quote and I will have a look.
In Message 39 you say:
In our free lands, no one is entitled to discriminate against those that the law of the land does not discriminate against.
Bliyaal in message 40 then asks:
So why are you doing it?
In message 41 you reply:
I am not.
And then in message 44 you admit that you are in favor of discrimination
Indeed. And proud to stand and give all the reasons why.
Make up your mind.
You do not steal back but do look to the authorities for redress.
Exactly, I let the law proceed. And in the case of refugees the law says it is illegal to discriminate against them on the basis of their religion.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Greatest I am, posted 11-20-2015 1:50 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Greatest I am, posted 11-20-2015 3:14 PM DrJones* has replied

  
Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 2369 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


Message 50 of 127 (772919)
11-20-2015 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Greatest I am
11-20-2015 1:39 PM


And so your morals and values stop at the borders of your country?
they could be liars and terrorists
But you don't know that. Did you know that in your country, you're innocent until found guilty? If you want to respect your country's values, that should be one of the starting point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Greatest I am, posted 11-20-2015 1:39 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Greatest I am, posted 11-20-2015 3:18 PM Bliyaal has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 51 of 127 (772921)
11-20-2015 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Greatest I am
11-20-2015 9:33 AM


If Muslims who want to change Islam can run away from it then Islam will never reform.
You forgot to include your argument. First of all the refugees are Christians and other religions, not just Muslim.
There are tens of thousands of Muslims who are or have been fighting for a more moderate Islam in Syria. But not everyone can fight. Not everyone wants to fight. You can't force them to stay. So what's your plan? Cut off the retreat of civilians for their own good?
When the trained fighters defending your city are overwhelmed by ISIS do you wait around for your wives and daughters to get serially raped for the next few years while you lie in a shallow unmarked grave?
Note how many Muslim countries have condemned ISIS. That condemnation, when backed by bodies that we have caused to stay in the M. E. to fight for those reforms, will bear fruit.
Yes. And I'm sure having Muslims exposed to living in a free and tolerant society until they can return to their homelands can only help foster moderation too.
We in the West do not need reforming to a more barbaric Islamic way, which is what is happening in the E.U. and Scandinavian lands.
Yes, the Western governments are becoming more belligerent and some citizens are being quite barbaric. Wanting people to drown, get raped and murdered, assuming they are generally all terrible people so its ok to kill them or let them die etc etc.
Islam needs a wake up call and forcing them to stay at home and fight for their rights is the long term solution.
So what you are saying is that the 20th Century worked out so well we should do it again?
How do you force them to stay home and fight for their rights? Should we strafe refugee marches? Bomb Tent Cities?
If it takes violence, then we should train and arm Muslims and send them back
And that's how we made al-Qaeda. And in Iraq we even handed them an army of unemployed soldiers and the weapons along with it!
From here
quote:
A year into the Syrian rebellion, the US and its allies weren’t only supporting and arming an opposition they knew to be dominated by extreme sectarian groups; they were prepared to countenance the creation of some sort of Islamic state — despite the grave danger to Iraq’s unity — as a Sunni buffer to weaken Syria.
Only a Muslim victory with Western help can have Islam change and the West should make a reform of the Qur'an and Sharia and the way they are interpreted should be tied to any help we offer.
But this is what I am saying. You don't reform a culture by exposing innocents to lunatics with guns.
You don't reform it by affirming things the lunatics are saying. We should stop talking and acting like Islam is intrinsically violent. That just reinforces the jihadist's message.
Unfortunately, the number of people who are prepared to take this minor step is vanishingly small.
There are a number of Muslim lands that are quite democratic or under other political systems that are reasonable so the M.E. has no excuse for choosing the more right wing jihadist creating forms of Islam.
There must a reason why, yes?
You've agreed it isn't Islam just now.
So why are they blowing up planes and concert halls in the West? Why are they killing one another? Why has the region entered a civil war?
Once we know the reasons, we can combat them. I've gone blue in the face discussing possible reasons that we have influence over at this forum. What reasons do you think exist and how can we remove them?
The West did not run from the fight for freedom and that is why we have it.
What???
What!!???
There were hundreds of thousands fleeing Franco, more fleeing Hitler. Civilians flee wars. You can't stop it by wishing it were otherwise, and if you could you'd be a monster. Sometimes they return as losers, sometimes as winners.
To facilitate the M.E. Muslims to run from their fight for freedom just gives the enemy a greater number that they need not fight, and we, in that sense, are exacerbating the problem by making the enemy stronger.
Well no. They weren't going to fight anyway. They were just going to get raped and murdered. The ones that do intend to fight? They join an organized militia. The rest flee.
You say it strengthens the enemy, but it does not. ISIS are enslaving people. ISIS need workers to run their State, the farms, the refineries. The less people in the region - the less productive the region is and the poorer ISIS is for it. The fewer children, the fewer kids getting brainwashed. The fewer men, the fewer people having to 'join ISIS or die', the fewer women, the less baby making.
Even if you forget about the humanitarian reasons, cutting off their supply of labour and labour reinforcement seems like a supremely smart move.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Greatest I am, posted 11-20-2015 9:33 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Greatest I am, posted 11-20-2015 3:33 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 52 of 127 (772922)
11-20-2015 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Greatest I am
11-20-2015 9:39 AM


In our free lands, no one is entitled to discriminate against those that the law of the land does not discriminate against.
Right?
By definition. They are however, perfectly entitled be deplore homosexuality - just as some Christians do in the West, and that is all I was saying.
That is why Sharia should be rejected as it discriminates against women and gays without a just cause.
I'm perfectly happy if people want to volunteer for their divorce hearings to held in a religious court. I'm all for freedom of choice in arbitration proceedings.
As for legislating Sharia at a criminal law and political level? Well that would be for the process of democracy to decide, wouldn't it? I expect that many countries would require extensive constitutional change to make it happen, but it isn't impossible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Greatest I am, posted 11-20-2015 9:39 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Greatest I am, posted 11-20-2015 3:40 PM Modulous has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 53 of 127 (772923)
11-20-2015 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by DrJones*
11-20-2015 1:56 PM


DrJones*
I see where the language might have cause your misunderstanding.
I began the phrase with ---"In our free lands".
I stand by what I said about those in my land.
What I am discriminating against negatively are those that are not in my land.
Let me add.
For those in my land who are homophobic, misogynistic and have some of the other odious beliefs and habits of immoral Islam, I use the right to speak against such beliefs and habits but would not discriminate negatively against them in any other way.
You can try to twist what I say to your advantage all you like but prepare to be ignored if I think you are just reaching for cheap points.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by DrJones*, posted 11-20-2015 1:56 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by DrJones*, posted 11-20-2015 3:24 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 54 of 127 (772924)
11-20-2015 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Bliyaal
11-20-2015 2:10 PM


Bliyaal
If they can get into the country then they will fall under the laws that they want to tear down.
If I can keep them out I will.
My standards do not change. Situations do and I adjust to what is given within that standard. It can get complicated.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Bliyaal, posted 11-20-2015 2:10 PM Bliyaal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Bliyaal, posted 11-23-2015 9:40 AM Greatest I am has not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 55 of 127 (772925)
11-20-2015 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Greatest I am
11-20-2015 3:14 PM


What I am discriminating against negatively are those that are not in my land.
And why do the ones within your borders get a free pass on discrimination? why is it ok to discriminate against people just cause they're not in your country?

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Greatest I am, posted 11-20-2015 3:14 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Greatest I am, posted 11-20-2015 3:49 PM DrJones* has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 56 of 127 (772926)
11-20-2015 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Modulous
11-20-2015 2:59 PM


Modulous
"Yes. And I'm sure having Muslims exposed to living in a free and tolerant society until they can return to their homelands can only help foster moderation too."
It has failed in Europe so I don't know where you get that idea.
Your heart is bleeding for the runners while ignoring that they are the same as those making them run who just happen to be the stronger at this point in time while ignoring the carnage done by previous runners of the same ilk.
You are not learning from experience.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCOLcMqdpls
Canada and the U.S. has already seen Islam trying to change our laws to Sharia by previous and likely better immigrants who came by choice. To think those coming by force will be less bent on Sharia is ridiculous.
Even as we speak, Canadians and Americans are lashing out at Canadian and American Muslims and more immigrants who are basically forced on us will get even more Canadians and Americans incensed. Especially as we see the growing carnage overseas.
This is no good for anyone short term nor long term. At least if the runners grow some balls because they are forced to by closed borders, the long term might be best served.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Modulous, posted 11-20-2015 2:59 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by DrJones*, posted 11-20-2015 3:38 PM Greatest I am has replied
 Message 62 by Modulous, posted 11-20-2015 4:02 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 57 of 127 (772927)
11-20-2015 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Greatest I am
11-20-2015 3:33 PM


...the runners while ignoring that they are the same as those making them run
Do you have any evidence of this that isn't " they're brown and muslim"?
Canada and the U.S. has already seen Islam trying to change our laws to Sharia by previous and likely better immigrants who came by choice.
Where has this happened in Canada?

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Greatest I am, posted 11-20-2015 3:33 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Greatest I am, posted 11-20-2015 4:01 PM DrJones* has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 58 of 127 (772928)
11-20-2015 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Modulous
11-20-2015 3:11 PM


Modulous
IOW. You would have happen to Canada as is happening overseas with host countries losing parcels of their countries to outsiders just as what happened to Molmo.
No thanks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXTDsde5vIU
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Modulous, posted 11-20-2015 3:11 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Modulous, posted 11-20-2015 4:17 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 59 of 127 (772929)
11-20-2015 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by DrJones*
11-20-2015 3:24 PM


DrJones*
Because they deserve it as the majority of them discriminate agiainst us.
If they want our respect then let them drop their hate and earn it.
If the Muslims in Canada and the U.S. make too much noise, they will get what other countries are giving them. The West will not just lay down and get run over by those who are less moral and civilized than ourselves.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by DrJones*, posted 11-20-2015 3:24 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by DrJones*, posted 11-20-2015 3:57 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 60 of 127 (772932)
11-20-2015 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Greatest I am
11-20-2015 3:49 PM


Because they deserve it as the majority of them discriminate agiainst us
And your evidence for this claim is?

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Greatest I am, posted 11-20-2015 3:49 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
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