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Author Topic:   Should countries outlaw the hijab, niqab and burka?
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 346 of 372 (774258)
12-15-2015 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 341 by Tangle
12-14-2015 12:51 PM


Tangle writes:
ringo writes:
I haven't seen any remotely convincing arguments that a dress code for women "benefits the community". Feel free to refresh my memory.
The judgement is here....
A court ruling is not evidence of benefits to the community.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by Tangle, posted 12-14-2015 12:51 PM Tangle has not replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 347 of 372 (774261)
12-15-2015 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 345 by ringo
12-15-2015 10:48 AM


ringo writes:
Yes, we've been through that "symbol" nonsense before. My response has always been that removing the symbol doesn't remove the oppression.
You're kidding right?
Do you really think that if a woman is forced to wear a black bag, head to foot with only a small veiled slit at the eyes and then one day she is allowed to, that it will have no effect? You once made a daft analogy of banning chains, do you think wearing ankle chains in public then not having to might make a difference?
Of course it won't make the oppression go away immediately, and for some possibly not at all but for some it will be liberating and over a couple of generations it will change attitudes. You're not going to like this but if a woman is covered head to foot in a bag, any evidence of physical abuse is totally hidden. And yes it does happen and yes I realise that the abuse may then take other forms, but that is not a reason not to remove one of them.
And of course, those women who have been indoctrinated such that they believe that their place is in subjugation would then have to confront the society they live in and begin to integrate a little.
It's the same as making alcohol magically disappear
No it's not. If it's like any daft analogy it's more like stopping people smoking in public buildings. Smoking isn't banned, it's taxed heavily, restricted and institutionally frowned upon. Gradually the practice dies out or is practiced in restictive circumstances.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by ringo, posted 12-15-2015 10:48 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by ringo, posted 12-15-2015 11:25 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 349 by Bliyaal, posted 12-15-2015 11:39 AM Tangle has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 348 of 372 (774265)
12-15-2015 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 347 by Tangle
12-15-2015 11:11 AM


Tangle writes:
Do you really think that if a woman is forced to wear a black bag, head to foot with only a small veiled slit at the eyes....
Why do you keep trying to bait and switch? What part of "hijab" do you not understand? I've never seen a burqa in my life but I see the hijab every day, so let's stick with reality for the moment. If you can establish a sensible reason for banning the hijab, we can move on.
I challenge you to even define what a hijab is. I've seen women wearing a scarf in the manner of a hijab. It gets cold in Canada, so scarves are quite common. Are you going to dictate how all women can wear their scarves? Or are you going to ban scarves altogether?
Tangle writes:
ringo writes:
It's the same as making alcohol magically disappear
No it's not.
Nuh-uh isn't a very powerful answer. Tell us how banning one thing is different from banning another thing. Tell us how prohibition of the hijab will work better than prohibition of alcohol.
Tangle writes:
Smoking isn't banned, it's taxed heavily, restricted and institutionally frowned upon.
So don't ban the hijab. Tax it heavily. The Scarf Tax should be a big revenue boost in Canada.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by Tangle, posted 12-15-2015 11:11 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by Tangle, posted 12-15-2015 1:58 PM ringo has replied

Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 2368 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


(1)
Message 349 of 372 (774267)
12-15-2015 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 347 by Tangle
12-15-2015 11:11 AM


Smoking isn't banned, it's taxed heavily, restricted and institutionally frowned upon.
Indeed! It's well known that the hijab is damaging to your health and to the health of those around you.
And you were talking about bad analogies...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by Tangle, posted 12-15-2015 11:11 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by Tangle, posted 12-16-2015 1:48 PM Bliyaal has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 350 of 372 (774274)
12-15-2015 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 343 by Jon
12-14-2015 10:55 PM


Re: Put yourself in someone else's shoes
Jon
Indeed. The author does good work.
She and her group speak out against the garb referred to by the O.P.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by Jon, posted 12-14-2015 10:55 PM Jon has not replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 351 of 372 (774275)
12-15-2015 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 345 by ringo
12-15-2015 10:48 AM


ringo
"My response has always been that removing the symbol doesn't remove the oppression."
No one argued against you on this.
But why do you think that governments are forbidding smoking even where the smoke would not offend or reach people?
Consider that it might be the same psychological reason I gave you for the garb.
Out of sight, out of mind.
Did you also note the stats I found that says that 75% of Muslim women feel forced to wear the garb in question?
Do you still think that the law should ignore the 75% just to appease the 25% whose indoctrination tells them that their invisible and absentee God wants them to cover their heads and faces?
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by ringo, posted 12-15-2015 10:48 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 352 by Bliyaal, posted 12-15-2015 1:10 PM Greatest I am has replied
 Message 361 by ringo, posted 12-16-2015 2:13 PM Greatest I am has replied

Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 2368 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


Message 352 of 372 (774277)
12-15-2015 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 351 by Greatest I am
12-15-2015 12:50 PM


But why do you think that governments are forbidding smoking even where the smoke would not offend or reach people?
Like where exactly? And how is the hijab damaging to one's health?
Did you also note the stats I found that says that 75% of Muslim women feel forced to wear the garb in question?
I looked to the article you linked. The survey was from another link and then, no trace of it's real origin. Can you find a source for it? Until them, dismissed.
Edited by Bliyaal, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by Greatest I am, posted 12-15-2015 12:50 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by Greatest I am, posted 12-15-2015 1:41 PM Bliyaal has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 353 of 372 (774280)
12-15-2015 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by Bliyaal
12-15-2015 1:10 PM


Bliyaal
Google
You did not like my stats nor the testimony of the women in the link in the O.P. but yet show nothing to put against them while discarding them.
Nice and honest debate that. Not.
This round is all mine.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by Bliyaal, posted 12-15-2015 1:10 PM Bliyaal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 355 by Bliyaal, posted 12-15-2015 2:10 PM Greatest I am has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 354 of 372 (774281)
12-15-2015 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by ringo
12-15-2015 11:25 AM


ringo writes:
Why do you keep trying to bait and switch? What part of "hijab" do you not understand?
"Should countries outlaw the hijab, niqab and burka?"
What part of the thread title do you not understand? We've done this, we're not only discussing the hijab. You should also re-read the post were I say I find the hijab attractive. There is no reason to ban it.
I've never seen a burqa in my life
That is, of course, totally irrelevant. As is the fact that I see them most times I go to London.
Nuh-uh isn't a very powerful answer. Tell us how banning one thing is different from banning another thing. Tell us how prohibition of the hijab will work better than prohibition of alcohol.
Burkas are not banned. They're prohibitted from being worn in public. Like smoking, they are restricted. No one is going to be prosecuted for ownership or dealing in burkas no matter how many they have. You get the difference?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by ringo, posted 12-15-2015 11:25 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by ringo, posted 12-16-2015 2:22 PM Tangle has replied

Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 2368 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


Message 355 of 372 (774282)
12-15-2015 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 353 by Greatest I am
12-15-2015 1:41 PM


Should I remember you what you said?
even where the smoke would not offend or reach people
No... the smoke can't reach people in a PUBLIC park... Are you kidding me?
You did not like my stats nor the testimony of the women in the link in the O.P. but yet show nothing to put against them while discarding them.
Nice and honest debate that. Not.
Your stats have no source (should I invent some for you?) and you're the one dismissing the testimony of women telling you they wear it freely. You also din't tell us how wearing a hijab is damaging to your health like smoking is. Nice and honest debate that. Not.
This round is all mine.
You should learn about this : Danth's_Law
quote:
If you have to insist that you've won an Internet argument, you've probably lost badly.
Edited by Bliyaal, : Fixed a typo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by Greatest I am, posted 12-15-2015 1:41 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 356 by Greatest I am, posted 12-15-2015 4:38 PM Bliyaal has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 356 of 372 (774294)
12-15-2015 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by Bliyaal
12-15-2015 2:10 PM


I did not insist.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by Bliyaal, posted 12-15-2015 2:10 PM Bliyaal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by Bliyaal, posted 12-16-2015 8:47 AM Greatest I am has replied

Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 2368 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


Message 357 of 372 (774312)
12-16-2015 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 356 by Greatest I am
12-15-2015 4:38 PM


Yes you did.
What you didn't do however is answering my questions. For someone who accuse people of taking only small parts of your posts, you don't give us a good example.
Nice and honest debate that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by Greatest I am, posted 12-15-2015 4:38 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by Greatest I am, posted 12-16-2015 9:23 AM Bliyaal has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 358 of 372 (774315)
12-16-2015 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 357 by Bliyaal
12-16-2015 8:47 AM


You reject my statistics out of hand without anything to refute them so I have to assume you will do the same with anything else I might post.
And you want honest debate. How droll.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by Bliyaal, posted 12-16-2015 8:47 AM Bliyaal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by Bliyaal, posted 12-16-2015 9:36 AM Greatest I am has not replied

Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 2368 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


Message 359 of 372 (774316)
12-16-2015 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 358 by Greatest I am
12-16-2015 9:23 AM


I don't have to provide anything to refute a baseless argument. It's not my job to do your work.
How many times will I have to tell you that your stats don't have a source. This is the basis of an honest debate. When challenged, provide sources and evidence for your claims.
I challenged you three times now.
Edited by Bliyaal, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by Greatest I am, posted 12-16-2015 9:23 AM Greatest I am has not replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 360 of 372 (774342)
12-16-2015 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 349 by Bliyaal
12-15-2015 11:39 AM


Bliyaal writes:
Smoking isn't banned, it's taxed heavily, restricted and institutionally frowned upon.
Indeed! It's well known that the hijab is damaging to your health and to the health of those around you.
The thread title is "should countries outlaw the hijab, niqab and burka?"
When I refer to to a head to toe bag with a slit for the eyes covered with a veil, in what universe does that refer to the hijab?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by Bliyaal, posted 12-15-2015 11:39 AM Bliyaal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 365 by Bliyaal, posted 12-17-2015 9:28 AM Tangle has replied

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