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Author Topic:   What's the deal with motor vehicle violations?
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 181 of 239 (765960)
08-08-2015 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by NoNukes
08-06-2015 2:48 PM


Re: Police at Risk in Traffic Stops
NoNukes writes:
I keep coming back to the idea that if the police didn't have a gun on their hip that it would go a long way to solving the problem. In the trunk maybe or at the end of the phone but not on your hip.
Yes! Yes!
I think these ideas are incredibly naive.
Did you think Prototypical was proposing that we unilaterally disarm our police? If he was, that's not how I interpreted it. Given current gun laws in the US, disarming our police would be foolhardy.
But I didn't think that's what he was saying. The context is traffic stops. Do the police really need guns for traffic stops? This came up earlier in the discussion when making traffic cops more like meter maids was mentioned. Anyway, traffic police in the UK and France don't carry guns.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by NoNukes, posted 08-06-2015 2:48 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by NoNukes, posted 08-08-2015 11:24 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 182 of 239 (765967)
08-08-2015 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by Percy
08-08-2015 11:03 AM


Re: Police at Risk in Traffic Stops
Did you think Prototypical was proposing that we unilaterally disarm our police?
No, Percy, I thought he was talking about putting the gun in the trunk.
What I am saying is that I think it understandable that police approach an unknown person at a traffic stop with a gun in their holster. On rare occasions which cannot be predicted, as is evidenced by recent news events, a gun is needed.
Do the police really need guns for traffic stops?
Yes, they sometimes do need them. Unfortunately, this country is chock full of guns and they are occasionally in the hands of bad guys at traffic stops.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Percy, posted 08-08-2015 11:03 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Dogmafood, posted 08-08-2015 12:26 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 183 of 239 (765982)
08-08-2015 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by NoNukes
08-08-2015 11:24 AM


Re: Police at Risk in Traffic Stops
Yes, they sometimes do need them. Unfortunately, this country is chock full of guns and they are occasionally in the hands of bad guys at traffic stops.
By this reasoning everyone needs a gun all the time.
I think that Percy has the right idea of separating traffic enforcement from general policing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by NoNukes, posted 08-08-2015 11:24 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by NoNukes, posted 08-08-2015 12:34 PM Dogmafood has replied
 Message 186 by ringo, posted 08-16-2015 2:47 PM Dogmafood has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 184 of 239 (765983)
08-08-2015 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Dogmafood
08-08-2015 12:26 PM


Re: Police at Risk in Traffic Stops
By this reasoning everyone needs a gun all the time.
Well, no. Most of us don't go poking around trouble and we don't walk up on strangers cars investigating. Policeman are supposed to do that.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Dogmafood, posted 08-08-2015 12:26 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Dogmafood, posted 08-20-2015 8:36 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 185 of 239 (766295)
08-16-2015 1:54 PM



  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 186 of 239 (766304)
08-16-2015 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Dogmafood
08-08-2015 12:26 PM


Re: Police at Risk in Traffic Stops
Prototypical writes:
I think that Percy has the right idea of separating traffic enforcement from general policing.
We already separate parking enforcement form traffic enforcement and general policing. Of course, parked cars generally don't have people in them. The people are the distinguishing factor, not the vehicles.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Dogmafood, posted 08-08-2015 12:26 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Dogmafood, posted 08-17-2015 3:18 AM ringo has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 187 of 239 (766317)
08-17-2015 3:18 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by ringo
08-16-2015 2:47 PM


Re: Police at Risk in Traffic Stops
Yes there are 2 problems. The first one is people and the second one is other people. The solution is for all of the people to treat the other people as they would be treated. Cops and criminals don't do that so much.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by ringo, posted 08-16-2015 2:47 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by ringo, posted 08-17-2015 11:44 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 188 of 239 (766336)
08-17-2015 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Dogmafood
08-17-2015 3:18 AM


Re: Police at Risk in Traffic Stops
ProtoTypical writes:
The solution is for all of the people to treat the other people as they would be treated. Cops and criminals don't do that so much.
Stop galloping, Gish.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Dogmafood, posted 08-17-2015 3:18 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Dogmafood, posted 08-18-2015 9:07 AM ringo has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 189 of 239 (766341)
08-17-2015 12:12 PM



  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 190 of 239 (766391)
08-17-2015 6:21 PM


Correction to Opening Post
While cleaning up some old filing I discovered that I was going 80 mph, not 90 mph, in a 55 mph zone when I got that speeding ticket a couple years ago. I misremembered. The number might have inflated in my mind over time because I always recalled how upset the officer seemed at me.
I don't think this changes anything.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Minnemooseus, posted 08-17-2015 6:48 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


(4)
Message 191 of 239 (766392)
08-17-2015 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Percy
08-17-2015 6:21 PM


Re: Correction to Opening Post
...I discovered that I was going 80 mph, not 90 mph, in a 55 mph zone...
Which makes the situation slightly less insane. You people don't need traffic cops, you need pace cars.
Moose
Added by edit later:
Maybe the NH license plates need to say "Live Free and Die".
Edited by Minnemooseus, : Added by edit later.

Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith
"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien
"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Percy, posted 08-17-2015 6:21 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(1)
Message 192 of 239 (766425)
08-18-2015 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by ringo
08-17-2015 11:44 AM


Re: Police at Risk in Traffic Stops
It's not gish galloping it's the free citizen agitation boogie. I can't focus on this topic for too long without getting pissed off. I realize how important the law is to a free society and to see it abused is just depressing.
I have no problem with empowering the police but they need to be absolutely accountable as opposed to enjoying some immunity from the laws that they are sworn to enforce. Under what conditions can anyone else assault or shoot someone by mistake and walk away unpunished?
This idea of just doing as you are told so that you don't get shot or beaten is absolutely fucked. How does this differ from being ruled by thugs? It is the integrity of the police force that allows the promise of justice after the fact to work. It doesn't take much rot to ruin the whole thing.
The problem lies in human nature and you can't give someone the power of life and death and then expect them to think like Gandhi. So take away the guns and put a camera on them. Get them firmly into the mindset that they are functionaries with no personal authority.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by ringo, posted 08-17-2015 11:44 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by ringo, posted 08-18-2015 11:42 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 193 of 239 (766433)
08-18-2015 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by Dogmafood
08-18-2015 9:07 AM


Re: Police at Risk in Traffic Stops
ProtoTypical writes:
It's not gish galloping it's the free citizen agitation boogie.
Whatever you call it, it's unnecessary. I'm not disagreeing with you.
I was just pointing out why traffic enforcement is lumped in with crime enforcement instead of with parking enforcement. It's because the traffic law breakers are just as dangerous to the public as criminal law breakers and they're liable to be just as dangerous to police too.
The police are not dealing with "us" and "them". We are all "them". If you want the police to treat you well, you have to let them treat "criminals" the same way - because they can't tell the difference.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Dogmafood, posted 08-18-2015 9:07 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by Dogmafood, posted 08-20-2015 8:37 PM ringo has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 194 of 239 (766734)
08-20-2015 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by NoNukes
08-08-2015 12:34 PM


Re: Police at Risk in Traffic Stops
Well, no. Most of us don't go poking around trouble and we don't walk up on strangers cars investigating. Policeman are supposed to do that.
If there is trouble then they should investigate. A burnt light or failure to signal is not a sign of criminal behaviour.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by NoNukes, posted 08-08-2015 12:34 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Percy, posted 08-21-2015 7:28 AM Dogmafood has not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(1)
Message 195 of 239 (766736)
08-20-2015 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by ringo
08-18-2015 11:42 AM


Re: Police at Risk in Traffic Stops
It's because the traffic law breakers are just as dangerous to the public as criminal law breakers and they're liable to be just as dangerous to police too.
Hogwash.
A criminal means to do you harm and a minor traffic violation is in no way even remotely similar. Using a minor violation as an excuse to violate your civil rights is draconian.
The police are not dealing with "us" and "them". We are all "them". If you want the police to treat you well, you have to let them treat "criminals" the same way - because they can't tell the difference.
We don't treat people like criminals until we know that they are, in fact, criminals. If you can't tell that they are a criminal then I would suggest that they are not a criminal and shouldn't be treated like one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by ringo, posted 08-18-2015 11:42 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by ringo, posted 08-21-2015 11:43 AM Dogmafood has not replied

  
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