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Author Topic:   The Brand New Birther Thread
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 136 of 218 (795662)
12-15-2016 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Faith
12-14-2016 4:29 PM


Re: Denying the facts means imputing false personal motivations to knowers of the facts
The point was to make it understandable and appeal to whatever is left of anybody's honesty at EvC.
You made it sound idiotic and insane. Essentially, "If you were a superstitious person who believed that your own failures were caused by someone else, you might burn a witch." If I were Hitler or Luther I might say something similar about Jews. Would that be justifiable. "Sorry for the pain, but I'm just following my beliefs to their natural ends. For that matter, you make exactly that claim about how Muslim's behave. My point is to make an understandable analogy that might appeal to whatever shred of honest you have left.
Since most here don't believe in demons or supernatural witchcraft it's easy to vilify the Christians who do.
Let's not play the martyr card so quickly. Lots of folks, Christian are not, believe in evil spirits, voodoo, etc. and they are all pretty easy to laugh at. None of their stories make their murders sympathetic.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Faith, posted 12-14-2016 4:29 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by PaulK, posted 12-15-2016 4:05 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 139 by Faith, posted 12-15-2016 9:19 AM NoNukes has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 137 of 218 (795665)
12-15-2016 4:05 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by NoNukes
12-15-2016 3:06 AM


Re: Denying the facts means imputing false personal motivations to knowers of the facts
Lewis did indeed argue that if we believed that there were witches, we should agree that they deserved execution.
However, this is not sufficient to defend the witch hunts or their methods - Lewis does not even argue that there were ANY genuine witches, let alone discuss the practices involved in convicting and executing alleged witches. If those executed were, in fact, innocent - and often cruelly treated to force confession - then surely the witch hunts deserve to be condemned as a monstrous miscarriage of justice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by NoNukes, posted 12-15-2016 3:06 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 138 of 218 (795683)
12-15-2016 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Modulous
12-14-2016 4:24 PM


The mailman's story
I have done a little digging and thought some more on this.
One point of minor interest is that the mailman originally dated the incidents to the mid-80s. It was the interviewer who suggested early 90s.
But there is a question here. Why would Mary Ayers call Obama a foreign student ? Obama was an American citizen and had lived in America since 1971, gone to school in Hawaii, and graduated from Occidental and Columbia. Maybe when he enrolled in school in Hawaii it might make sense, but not after so much time. Of course she might possibly have assumed that Obama was foreign based on his name, but that hardly helps anyone who wants to read a deeper significance into it.
And if Obama was openly calling himself a foreigner, openly getting help from Mary Ayers why is there no corroborating evidence at all ? You can't keep a secret by going around blabbing it to the mailman, and visiting a secret benefactor in an area where any black person would be conspicuous is not exactly wise.
So, I have to say that it seems more likely that it was not Obama. Maybe Mary Ayers was helping a foreign student at the University of Chicago - concluding mistaken identity on the part of the mailman - who didn't knowingly see Obama until much later - is hardly a big stretch, and that hypothesis removes all the other problems.
Even if the visitor was Obama - unlikely as it seems - we would still have a problem concluding that Mary Ayers correctly called him a foreign student - there is no great problem with Mary Ayers also helping another student who was foreign, or even wrongly assuming that Obama was foreign from his name.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Modulous, posted 12-14-2016 4:24 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 139 of 218 (795687)
12-15-2016 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by NoNukes
12-15-2016 3:06 AM


Re: Denying the facts means imputing false personal motivations to knowers of the facts
Since most here don't believe in demons or supernatural witchcraft it's easy to vilify the Christians who do.
Let's not play the martyr card so quickly. Lots of folks, Christian are not, believe in evil spirits, voodoo, etc. and they are all pretty easy to laugh at. None of their stories make their murders sympathetic.
The Protestants, as I understand it, had court trials, so this wasn't "murder." Their standards may be indefensible by our current lights, but they weren't wholesale murder. And at least in Salem it was the clergy who stopped the proceedings on the basis of their not being fair.
Anyway, PaulK actually answered you with something I can appreciate. Lewis DID say what I remembered so your ridicule is as usual just your bias against anything I post. What I said was certainly not idi*otic and in*sane. (It seems that PaulK's own bias is suspended for at least a minute or two.)
The others who believe in such things as demons don't happen to be present at EvC, though perhaps I've missed a few instances, so correct me. The point was that it is the Christians here who believe in invisible spirits so it is the Christians who get vilified. It's a statement of simple fact, not playing the martyr.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by NoNukes, posted 12-15-2016 3:06 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by jar, posted 12-15-2016 9:29 AM Faith has replied
 Message 147 by NoNukes, posted 12-15-2016 12:30 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 140 of 218 (795691)
12-15-2016 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Faith
12-15-2016 9:19 AM


Re: Denying the facts means imputing false personal motivations to knowers of the facts
Faith writes:
The Protestants, as I understand it, had court trials, so this wasn't "murder."
Roman Catholics also had trials so their execution of Protestants was also not "murder".
AbE:
But the point is that where Obama was born is totally irrelevant when it comes to whether or not he can become President just as his religious affiliation is totally irrelevant.
Thank God in the US a Muslim has as much right to be a President as any Christian.
Edited by jar, : see AbE:

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Faith, posted 12-15-2016 9:19 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Faith, posted 12-15-2016 9:41 AM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 141 of 218 (795692)
12-15-2016 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by jar
12-15-2016 9:29 AM


Re: Denying the facts means imputing false personal motivations to knowers of the facts
Roman Catholics also had trials so their execution of Protestants was also not "murder".
You mean the trials such as the rack and the iron maiden? Did they try the Huguenots before slaughtering them at the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre? Did they conduct a trial before going to the Waldensian villages and slaughtering them? Perhaps there were some trials, of course.
It has not yet been established that where Obama was born wouldn't affect his eligibility and there are many who say it would.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by jar, posted 12-15-2016 9:29 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by jar, posted 12-15-2016 10:03 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 166 by 14174dm, posted 12-15-2016 2:27 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 142 of 218 (795695)
12-15-2016 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by Modulous
12-14-2016 4:43 PM


Re: memory is terrible, the documents are fake, the quotes have been mined
I respectfully, I hope, totally and strenuously disagree with just about everything you said which I consider to be a mixture of propaganda and bad reasoning.
Your consideration is irrelevant. For this to be a discussion you have to show the poor reasoning and propaganda.
My consideration is my judgment of the argument, not the argument itself. I already gave all the evidence of the poor reasoning in the post you are answering. I believe the poor reasoning is basically a form of propaganda because of your pro-Obama bias.
Then you haven't persuaded me. Again, I gave you every opportunity and treated you with as much respect as I could. If you want to be persuasive, you have to work harder.
I would probably faint if anyone here got persuaded by anything I said. I made an excellent case. That's the end of it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Modulous, posted 12-14-2016 4:43 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 143 of 218 (795698)
12-15-2016 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Faith
12-15-2016 9:41 AM


Re: Denying the facts means imputing false personal motivations to knowers of the facts
Faith writes:
It has not yet been established that where Obama was born wouldn't affect his eligibility and there are many who say it would.
there are many ignorant fools who do say such things however the US Constitution and the decisions of the US Federal courts say that they are simply wrong.
Reality really is a bitch.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Faith, posted 12-15-2016 9:41 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 144 of 218 (795711)
12-15-2016 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Modulous
12-14-2016 4:24 PM


The mailman's memory fits all the known facts
OK, I may be rested enough to attempt to answer your long post.
Except by him
Nope. He met someone who he thought might be the same person described as foreign in an earlier conversation. That the person he met was said foreign person was not confirmed, even by his own testimony. In fact - his own statement doesn't even say that the person he spoke to was foreign, other than being black and having a funny name there is no reason given to suppose he was foreign. So even if it was Obama he met, there is no reason to suppose that it was the same foreign person alluded to in an earlier conversation which took place at some unknown amount of time earlier. And there's no reason to suppose Mary Ayers was being honest about the foreignness or existence of the anonymous foreign student.
There is every reason to suppose it was Obama, and the same foreign person Mary Ayers told him about, and that she was being honest, for the reasons I gave. Your doubts are the poor reasoning I was talking about. I believe I made the case and your answer is inadequate.
Actually, he said very definitely that it was Obama.
No, he didn't. Here's the part where you provide his words to the contrary:
Hulton the mailman writes:
...Iam positive that the black male I spoke with in front of the Ayers house that day was indeed a young Barack Obama.
As I said, he said very definitely that it was Obama.
He met a black guy with a funny name and sticky out ears. That's not 'definitely' Obama. It's a person's opinion based on a decades old memory of a single encounter which he couldn't place the date of. It's not evidence.
This is the kind of poor reasoning I find a lot at EvC, this supposed bastion of evidence-based reasoning. I described the accumulated evidence that supports the mailman's testimony. His opinion is his conclusion based on all the evidence he had at his disposal, the facts from his memory in combination with facts publicly known about Obama. It's a reasonable conclusion, in fact it's a really really reasonable conclusion. Again, it's not "evidence" it's his conclusion BASED on all the accumulated evidence. Your attempt to make the date important is poor reasoning, for the reasons I gave in my previous post.
Who else could it be anyway?
There a lot of black people.
Not young black foreign students who are light-skinned with ears that stick out, who are coming to thank the people who supported him through school, people who were related to Bill Ayers who is known to have been a big influence in Barack Obama's life, people who lived in the house where a Mary Ayers, whose name Hulton remembered so well probably because of this incident that fixed the whole scene in his mind, had previously told the mailman about the foreign student they were supporting, a young black man who happened to say this very weird thing about how he was going to become President of the US, which, again, would make the guy stand out in anyone's memory IMO. Trying to reduce this to "a lot of black people" is an absurd answer to all these known facts. What I meant by "poor reasoning."
What other young black man of the right age who knew Bill ayers did become President?
The mailman did not know he was going to become President.
Of course not. He thought the idea so strange and implausible he couldn't get it out of his head. It was only when a black man of the right age with an odd foreign name, and light skin and ears that stuck out, who knew Bill Ayers, comes to run for President, that the statement would take on an even stranger significance.
Wouldn't you remember that odd "prophecy" yourself under the circumstances?
Not really. I've met lots of people who claimed they were going to be something great and improbable, I can't remember them in any particular detail. Especially the ones from decades ago.
But it would be crazy for a foreign student, who didn't have anything of the demeanor of an irrational or cra*zy person, to say such a thing. It would stick out in MY mind I'm sure. I'd have to wonder where he got such an idea, especially if he said it with complete conviction.
I consider such a strange combination of circumstances to be memorable. You don't. Shall we call this a wash because of our respective prejudices?
No other direct verification, but there are circumstantial points we know about Obama that are independent of the mailman's testimony, his association with the Ayers family for one thing
True, but then the mailman knew of this association before making his affidavit. If he had been one of the many people motivated to discrediting Obama, like those who would stand in court and swear testimony, he may have consciously or unconsciously inserted Obama's face into the memory. THAT is how memory works.
He probably did insert Obama's face into the memory, but his face fit well enough to BE a fit, the light skin, the stuck-out ears. The memory in combination with the known facts about Obama makes for a far better fit than the situations you describe such as the memory of a rapist, where there is ONLY the memory and nothing else known about the rapist to go on. But in this case there are known facts about Obama that are completely independent of anything the mailman could make up that corroborate his memory, such as Obama's relationship with Bill Ayers, his foreign name and known time spent in foreign countries. This plus his coming to thank an Ayers family for putting him through school, after Mary Ayers had told Hulton about the foreign student they were putting through school -- this fit is way too good to be dismissed as you dismiss it: poor reasoning.
I'm getting very tired, I'll have to come back to this.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Modulous, posted 12-14-2016 4:24 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-15-2016 11:58 AM Faith has replied
 Message 153 by PaulK, posted 12-15-2016 1:21 PM Faith has replied
 Message 157 by Modulous, posted 12-15-2016 1:42 PM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 145 of 218 (795718)
12-15-2016 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Faith
12-15-2016 10:54 AM


Re: The mailman's memory fits all the known facts
It fits none of the known facts, since Obama is not foreign, was not a student in Chicago, and does not have magical powers of precognition, THAT BIT DIDN'T MAKE YOU A TINY BIT SUSPICIOUS?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Faith, posted 12-15-2016 10:54 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Faith, posted 12-15-2016 1:24 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 146 of 218 (795719)
12-15-2016 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Faith
12-14-2016 4:48 PM


Re: memory is terrible, the documents are fake, the quotes have been mined
I believe the literary agent or whatever she was and Obama's grandmother were intimidated into denying the truth they'd already told.
With regards to the lie about Obama's grandmother, see here
And the literary agent ... tell us, Faith, if she was telling the truth, how could she have possibly found it out? Did she have psychic powers too?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Faith, posted 12-14-2016 4:48 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Faith, posted 12-15-2016 12:34 PM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 151 by Faith, posted 12-15-2016 1:13 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 147 of 218 (795720)
12-15-2016 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Faith
12-15-2016 9:19 AM


Re: Denying the facts means imputing false personal motivations to knowers of the facts
The Protestants, as I understand it, had court trials, so this wasn't "murder." Their standards may be indefensible by our current lights, but they weren't wholesale murder. And at least in Salem it was the clergy who stopped the proceedings on the basis of their not being fair.
They were morally equivalent to murder. I stand by my characterization. In Salem, the state and the church were inseparable. The trials were "stopped" by the clergy enforcing better rules of evidence and not by a realization that they were perpetrating evil. Every single person tried, whether or not they were executed, was completely innocent of witchcraft because that crap does not work.
Lewis DID say what I remembered so your ridicule is as usual just your bias against anything I post.
I never contradicted the idea that C S Lewis made that statement. You can take that particular issue up with jar if you'd like. I don't care if it was C S Lewis or the Queen of England who expressed the idea that superstition makes you kill folk. C S Lewis statement is a complete and utter validation of the principle of separation of Church and State, and possibly also a validation of the principle of not allowing the state to have the power to execute folks.
The point was that it is the Christians here who believe in invisible spirits so it is the Christians who get vilified. It's a statement of simple fact, not playing the martyr.
The vilification is not because you are Christian. You are being ridiculed for using superstition to justify the unjustifiable. In fact, it is not all Christians who are being ridiculed here, it is just you who happens to be the one accepting and making BS excuses.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Faith, posted 12-15-2016 9:19 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 148 of 218 (795721)
12-15-2016 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Dr Adequate
12-15-2016 12:06 PM


The Kenyan grandmother's story
Faith writes:
believe the literary agent or whatever she was and Obama's grandmother were intimidated into denying the truth they'd already told.
With regards to the lie about Obama's grandmother, see here
Yes, I heard the whole thing already. But I'll copy out your reference:
The claim is based on an Oct. 16, 2008, telephone call between Bishop Ron McRae of the Anabaptist Churches of North America and Sarah Obama of Kenya, Barack Obama's elderly step-grandmother. The interview is complicated by the addition of at least one translator, because Sarah Obama, then 86, spoke Swahili.
The translator was fluent in Swahili according to the You Tube video I posted earlier.
The edited portion that often makes the rounds on the Internet includes this part of the interview:
McRae: "Could I ask her about his actual birthplace? I would like to see his birthplace when I come to visit Kenya in December. Was she present when he was born in Kenya?"
"She says yes she was. She was present when Obama was born," said the translator.
Smoking gun? Only if you stop the tape there and don't listen to the rest of the interview.
It is the smoking gun even after you've listened to the rest.
McRae immediately followed up by saying, "Okay, when I come in December, I would like to go by the place, the hospital where he was born. Could you tell me where he was born? Was he born in Mombasa?"
The translator can be heard translating, and then, he said, "No. Obama was not born in Mombasa. He was born in America."
Uh huh, this is after someone who was with the grandmother had reminded her that she wasn't supposed to tell anyone he was born there.
Said McRae: "Whereabouts was he born? I thought he was born in Kenya."
The response came back, "He was born in America, not in Mombasa."
"Do you know where he was born?" McRae continued. "I thought he was born in Kenya. I was gonna go by and see where he was born."
"Hawaii. She says he was born in Hawaii," the translator said. "In the state of Hawaii, where his father, his father was also learning there. The state of Hawaii."
Yup, she's now elaborating the story as she was reminded she was supposed to.
"I thought she said she was present," McRae said. "Was she able to see him being born in Hawaii?''
Reasonable question of course since he knew she'd said she was present. But now the lie gets elaborated:
"No, no," the translator said. "...She was not ... she was here in Kenya. Obama was born in America ... Because the grandmother was back in Kenya and Obama was born in America, where he is from, where his father was learning, learning in America, the United States."
This is ridiculous. They are trying to pretend she was really saying SHE was in Kenya, but why on earth would she have to say THAT? This is just the sort of absurdity that happens when someone tries to change their story midstream.
Listen to the full conversation yourself. The parts in question begin about the 4:20 mark.
McRae -- who we should emphasize was not the translator -- has kept the theory alive. In a Dec. 5, 2008 article, Salon ran an affidavit from McRae in which he maintains Sarah Obama confirmed she witnessed Obama's birth in Kenya:
Well, that is the impression one gets from the early part of the interview, that she did indeed say she witnessed his birth in Kenya. That she changed her story under pressure didn't impress McRae.
"Though some few younger relatives, including Mr. Ogombe (one of the translators), have obviously been versed to counter such facts with the common purported information from the American news media that Obama was born in Hawaii, Ms. Sarah Hussein Obama was very adamant that her grandson, Senator Barack Hussein Obama, was born in Kenya, and that she was present and witnessed his birth in Kenya, not the United States. When Mr. Ogombe attempted to counter Sarah Obama's clear responses to the question, verifying the birth of Senator Obama in Kenya, I asked Mr. Ogombe, how she could be present at Barack Obama's birth if the Senator was born in Hawaii, but Ogombe would not answer the question, instead he repeatedly tried to insert that, "No, No, No. He was born in the United States!"
That's not what we heard on the tape. What we heard was a very rough translation in which an elderly woman agreed to the leading question that Obama was born in Kenya and that she was present. But it was immediately and clearly corrected -- repeatedly.
Sure, cuz somebody with her nudged her to remind her she was supposed to lie.
Funny how it's a "rough translation" when she says she witnessed his birth, but then becomes clear as crystal when she tells the "correct" story.
I'll go listen to it again though.
abe: later, unable to load the video from your link.
ABE: I went to find the one I'd heard earlier and can't locate it. Could be me but lately I've found it to be surprisingly hard to find things I just saw or heard. Oh well, I did find this one:
The evidence just keeps accumulating.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-15-2016 12:06 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by DrJones*, posted 12-15-2016 12:54 PM Faith has replied
 Message 165 by Modulous, posted 12-15-2016 2:27 PM Faith has replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 149 of 218 (795722)
12-15-2016 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Faith
12-15-2016 12:34 PM


Re: The Kenyan grandmother's story
Uh huh, this is after someone who was with the grandmother had reminded her that she wasn't supposed to tell anyone he was born there.
And what is your evidence for this?

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Faith, posted 12-15-2016 12:34 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Faith, posted 12-15-2016 1:06 PM DrJones* has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 150 of 218 (795723)
12-15-2016 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by DrJones*
12-15-2016 12:54 PM


Re: The Kenyan grandmother's story
Evidence: that she did say she was present at his birth.
Evidence: the accumulation of evidence from many sources.
Evidence: Such as the video of the Kenyan ambassador saying yes they have already set up a memorial to his birth in Kenya.
Evidence: Such as the sign that says "Welcome to Kenya, birthplace of Barack Obama." I just saw it yesterday I think in a video about Obama, but I looked at a lot of videos and can't find it, can't find it by searching at You Tube either. A big roadside sign saying exactly what I quoted.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by DrJones*, posted 12-15-2016 12:54 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by DrJones*, posted 12-15-2016 1:41 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 170 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 12-15-2016 2:52 PM Faith has replied

  
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