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Author Topic:   Earth science curriculum tailored to fit wavering fundamentalists
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(4)
Message 497 of 1053 (752436)
03-11-2015 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 496 by Tangle
03-11-2015 12:09 PM


Re: Science history book recommendations
So if we came across a 3 foot tripaedal or wheelbarrow animal in a remote place it would junk the ToE overnight.
Not necessarily. But it certainly would have to be studied and understood, and then that new data would have to be fitted into an overall picture (theory) somehow. If it required changing or even scrapping the theory of evolution, a new theory would have to be developed that would take into account both the new and all of the existing data.
And creationists would hate it just as much as they do the current theory.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 496 by Tangle, posted 03-11-2015 12:09 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 500 by Tangle, posted 03-11-2015 1:02 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 620 of 1053 (758256)
05-22-2015 9:51 PM


Taylor on Diamonds
Use of natural diamonds to monitor C-14 AMS instrument backgrounds
http://www.ess.uci.edu/pub/4372
Abstract: To examine one component of the instrument-based background in the University of California Keck Carbon Cycle AMS spectrometer, we have obtained measurements on a set of natural diamonds pressed into sample holders. Natural diamond samples (N = 14) from different sources within rock formations with geological ages greatly in excess of 100 Ma yielded a range of currents (similar to 110-250 mu A C-12-where filamentous graphite typically yields similar to 150 mu A C-12(-)) and apparent C-14 ages (64.9 +/- 0.4 ka BP [0.00031 +/- 0.00002 fm] to 80.0 +/- 1.1 ka BP [0.00005 +/- 0.00001 fm]). Six fragments cut from a single diamond exhibited essentially identical C-14 values - 69.3 +/- 0.5 ka-70.6 +/- 0.5 ka BP. The oldest C-14 age equivalents were measured on natural diamonds which exhibited the highest current yields.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Replies to this message:
 Message 622 by edge, posted 05-22-2015 10:21 PM Coyote has not replied
 Message 623 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 05-23-2015 5:10 AM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 624 of 1053 (758272)
05-23-2015 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 623 by ThinAirDesigns
05-23-2015 5:10 AM


Re: Taylor on Diamonds
I think I have a copy at the office but won't be there until Tuesday.
But maybe try E-mail: ervin.taylor@ucr.edu
Taylor is a nice fellow, maybe he'll be able to send you a copy.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 623 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 05-23-2015 5:10 AM ThinAirDesigns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 625 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 05-23-2015 10:48 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 636 of 1053 (758389)
05-24-2015 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 635 by ThinAirDesigns
05-24-2015 6:32 PM


Re: Transitional fossil visual aid
Another version of the same approach is a picture every generation (or ten generations) going back a few million years. One blends into the next in the exact same way.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 635 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 05-24-2015 6:32 PM ThinAirDesigns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 637 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 05-24-2015 6:54 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 654 of 1053 (758525)
05-27-2015 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 653 by ThinAirDesigns
05-27-2015 10:40 PM


Re: Fossil Dating
That area of Africa had a lot of volcanic activity, so there are ash and other volcanic layers all over the place.
You date the layer above the fossil and the one below it, and that gives you upper and lower limits. If those two limits are close together you have a pretty tight dating range. If far apart, you look for index fossils or something else to help narrow the range.
Rinse and repeat.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 653 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 05-27-2015 10:40 PM ThinAirDesigns has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 657 by JonF, posted 05-28-2015 1:40 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 703 of 1053 (758930)
06-05-2015 9:02 PM


Theory
Nobody spelled out the details, so you're stuck with this:
Theory: a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses. Theories do not grow up to be laws. Theories explain laws.
Theory: A scientifically testable general principle or body of principles offered to explain observed phenomena. In scientific usage, a theory is distinct from a hypothesis (or conjecture) that is proposed to explain previously observed phenomena. For a hypothesis to rise to the level of theory, it must predict the existence of new phenomena that are subsequently observed. A theory can be overturned if new phenomena are observed that directly contradict the theory. [Source]
When a scientific theory has a long history of being supported by verifiable evidence, it is appropriate to speak about "acceptance" of (not "belief" in) the theory; or we can say that we have "confidence" (not "faith") in the theory. It is the dependence on verifiable data and the capability of testing that distinguish scientific theories from matters of faith.
Hypothesis: a tentative theory about the natural world; a concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomena; "a scientific hypothesis that survives experimental testing becomes a scientific theory"; "he proposed a fresh theory of alkalis that later was accepted in chemical practices."
What this boils down to is a theory is an explanation that has been tested and that has made successful predictions.
Even more basic --a scientific theory is the single best explanation for a given set of facts.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Replies to this message:
 Message 708 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 06-06-2015 5:42 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 711 of 1053 (758990)
06-06-2015 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 710 by ThinAirDesigns
06-06-2015 8:45 PM


Re: Theories or other?
To fundamentalists, "assumption" means somewhere between "wild-ass-guess" to "absolutely wrong." Unless those assumptions are theirs, of course, in which case they are absolutely "proven."
And also, to fundamentalists, a theory is a wild-ass-guess at best. Remember the "its only a theory" nonsense they tried to peddle a few years back? By that they meant a theory was totally worthless as an explanation, just a guess, and not absolutely reliable as were their faith-based explanations.
And there is the one huge problem with fundamentalists and creationists--they are not doing science. In fact, they are doing the exact opposite of science.
Why anyone would ever take their pronouncements on science and science methodology seriously is a mystery, as is demonstrated here on a daily basis.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 710 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 06-06-2015 8:45 PM ThinAirDesigns has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 820 of 1053 (760955)
06-26-2015 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 817 by 46&2
06-26-2015 5:32 PM


Re: Saline and Carbon Dating
I can't really find a source for his claim, either, after a brief search. I suspect it's a twist on the argument concerning the reservoir effect.
I think you're right. He thinks that saline is responsible for the reservoir effect.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 817 by 46&2, posted 06-26-2015 5:32 PM 46&2 has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 829 of 1053 (760977)
06-26-2015 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 827 by Pollux
06-26-2015 7:27 PM


Re: Saline and Carbon Dating
archeologyexpert.co.uk
That seems to be a crank or creationist site, at least from reading their C14 page.
I wouldn't trust anything they say without verifying it elsewhere.
Certainly their C14 page contains some standard creationist nonsense.
{For whatever it's worth, the site is Home - Archaeology Expert (note spelling difference) - Adminnemooseus}
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Add link.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 827 by Pollux, posted 06-26-2015 7:27 PM Pollux has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 831 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 06-26-2015 10:10 PM Coyote has not replied
 Message 832 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 06-26-2015 10:12 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied
 Message 836 by Pollux, posted 06-27-2015 1:53 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 893 of 1053 (761959)
07-07-2015 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 892 by Faith
07-06-2015 10:10 PM


Re: Geologic column
The column has many local versions but the Geo Time Scale incorporates them all.
So? What's the alternative? We're talking about 4+ billion years here. Of course the local columns will fit in there somewhere! Where else are they going to go?
Which are you all talking about? I'm surprised anybody would say the complete Geo Time Scale can't exist in any one place. I've never said that, and I've seen many cases where the whole range of time periods is represented.
Your comments about matters scientific have been shown to be worthless (although even a stopped clock is correct twice a day).
Why do you even bother? You're not fooling us, and you're probably not even fooling yourself.
You are anti-rational, anti-evidence, and anti-science, and yet you think you are qualified to lecture scientists on what they should be doing, and how they should be doing it? What a joke! What you are espousing is the exact opposite of science.
And if you think I'm being hard on you, my comments are based directly on the hundreds or thousands of posts you have made here. You aren't exactly hiding what you believe.
And that is the core of it. You are relying on belief rather than evidence, all the while attempting to "educate" those of us who are relying on evidence rather then belief.
I have to say you're about the nicest creationist to post here, but you're also the most obstinate. You've yet to see a contrary fact or theory that you won't try to beat into submission to your anti-science beliefs--no matter what the evidence of the real world shows.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 892 by Faith, posted 07-06-2015 10:10 PM Faith has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 952 of 1053 (772100)
11-05-2015 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 951 by ThinAirDesigns
11-05-2015 9:01 PM


Re: Missing rings in dendrochronology
Tree rings are not on their own. There are several other sources of annular data against which to cross compare.
And tree rings from different parts of the world can be cross compared. Events such as the "year without a summer" serve as markers which help to align the various sequences.
The business we hear from creationists about multiple rings is just the usual nonsense of making things up in a vain effort to support their ancient tribal beliefs.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 951 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 11-05-2015 9:01 PM ThinAirDesigns has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 957 of 1053 (772115)
11-06-2015 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 956 by ThinAirDesigns
11-06-2015 9:48 AM


Re: C14 dating question
The problem you describe is actually two separate problems.
The marine mollusks and seals, etc., are taking in some water that contains "reservoir" carbon, that is, that has been sealed off from the atmosphere for hundreds to thousands of years. That makes that water, and anything using it, appear older than it really is. This is readily corrected for when dating marine mollusks.
Plants taking up water or CO2 through the roots wouldn't be getting reservoir carbon in the same way as marine organisms, but might be getting old, dead carbon from limestone formations. This would make them appear older than they actually are. Freshwater mollusks would be very susceptible to this in some areas.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 956 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 11-06-2015 9:48 AM ThinAirDesigns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 958 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 11-06-2015 4:09 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 1051 of 1053 (784872)
05-24-2016 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1050 by kbertsche
05-24-2016 8:26 PM


Re: Series on Chris Johnson
That explanation for freshwater shells was about the only decent thing in the whole article.
The rest is typical creationist nonsense totally unsupported by evidence.
Reading creationist's articles on C14 dating is both painful and laughable at the same time. They lengths to which they have to go to reinforce their beliefs in the face of contradictory evidence never ceases to amaze me.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1050 by kbertsche, posted 05-24-2016 8:26 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1052 by kbertsche, posted 05-25-2016 1:48 AM Coyote has not replied

  
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