Oh No, The New Awesome Primary Thread

In Message 1511 I asked in good faith, "Wouldn't pushing the Democrats to the left help Trump rather than hurt him?"In Message 1512 you replied, "No," which suggests to me that you were claiming that (Bernie Sanders) pushing to the left would not help Trump.In Message 1538 you finally admitted that, "This is an argument the right is trying to use but it is only getting traction among a small population." So the so-called "strawman" is getting traction, just not much.You seem to be admitting that yes, (Bernie Sanders) pushing the Democrats to the left will help Trump - just not enough to effect the outcome of the election. That's all I was asking.My guess is that your "analysis" is based more on wishful thinking than reality, judging by the "analysis" of Trump's chances to date. I've already predicted in Message 428 that Trump will be elected. I hope I'm wrong but I don't like to underestimate the stupidity of the American people.

So according to you, the people who *actually* voted for Bush the Lesser are blameless for electing a contender for second worst President in history, instead it was all the fault of the few who voted for Nader.So not the fault of Bush the Incompetent voters, not the fault of an obsolete electoral college system, not the fault of a partisan Supreme Court -- the whole blame lies with Nader and his voters.Screw your cowardice and irrationality, I vote for what I believe in. If the majority did as I do, neither Clinton or Trump would be the nominee and Sanders would be the next President.Since I am true to my convictions, I will be voting for Jill Stein although for reasons I have mentioned before, Gary Johnson would also be a vastly better choice as well. However, since I believe climate change and income inequality are the most important issues if our time and Stein is the only one left who agrees, she has my vote.Because -- I vote for what I believe in and it is not hate and fear -- that is for Clinton and Trump supporters to embrace.If Clinton or Trump is elected and the next five wars cause several million deaths, the blood is on the hands of anyone who voted for them, not on anyone voting for Stein, Johnson, or Sanders.If you are ever called for jury duty, decline. You are clearly unqualified to assign guilt or innocence.Edited by anglagard, : Fix incomplete sentence

I appreciate your sentiments (if not your sediments - I'm more of an igneous guy), but...Until we have some sort of run-off system, I feel the need to vote for the lesser of two evils. And that means the Democratic candidate.Texas is pretty sure (understatement?) to go Trump.Minnesota is pretty sure (not as confident) to go Hillary. But I'm not about to chance doing a "protest vote".If nothing else, we need to keep SCOTUS appointments out of the hands of a Republican and/or comedy routine.But as long as House and/or Senate control remains Republican, even if the progressive ideal was elected President, it would seem to make little difference.OSLT.MooseEdited by Minnemooseus, : Tweak.

And yet I am not convinced that a #SHilIary nomination will be good for overturning citizens united -- she's more likely to go wall street and corporatist warmonger. Instant runoff would be cool, but I would settle initially for paper ballots for all (identical to mail-ins) with a week to vote -- so that the paper ballots can be hand counted and compared to machine counted to eliminate vote hacking and election fraud by the state party running each state election. I would also like to see the tallies not announced until the electoral college to ensure that all mail-ins (troops etc) be counted and verified.The evidence we have of these manipulations being done is sufficient to warrant a total ban on all electronic machines that leave no paper trail and a much more intense monitoring of electronic vote tallying machines.I would also like to see proportional representation in the electoral college rather than winner take all. Probability is that the senate will flip and domination in the house will erode in the 2016, but if SHilIary is elected you can count on a reversal come 2018 that goes even further -- perhaps to a super majority GOP senate, at which point her ability to get anything done (without caving completely to her republican side) is nil.This is also why Sanders has ALWAYS said we need a Political REvolution, not just in the presidential race, but across the nation at ALL levels of government. So far he is the only candidate that is inspiring people to stand up and run in their local and state races as well as for national races. Over 7,000 at last count. You can check your states probable lean at Cook Partisan Voting Index (PVI)Minnesota is a D+2, while Texan is an R+10.Rhode Island is a D+11, so I feel comfortable with voting for Jill Stein or writing Bernie in. Not as a "protest vote" but as a vote of affirmation statement for who I feel is the best candidate, without it helping the #ScaryHairChump to get elected.Enjoy

I appreciate your sentiments as well as I have been in a similar situation. One of the very few times I actually voted Republican was during the gubernatorial election between the hopelessly corrupt and stupid Democrat Bruce King, the Green candidate Roberto Mondragon and the Republican. I was set to vote for Mondragon until a poll right before the election indicated the front runners were tied, so just to keep King from winning I reluctantly voted for the Republican. Turns out that Republican was Gary Johnson, who balanced the budget by vetoing every pork-laden special interest bill to cross his desk and had every bribe-taking politician he could find indicted and convicted, including the head of the State Senate. Best vote I ever made for a winning candidate.Hopefully Clinton will be a similar surprise, but I doubt it. It appears her default position is to kill the innocent by the bushel-full for the crime of being born in a foreign nation or offending United Fruit by electing a Democratic Socialist, as was the case in Honduras. I foresee a five war minimum, with all money taken from the 99% to fund these wars as an excuse to reward Wall Street and military contractors for their kickbacks.I hope I am wrong but evidence from her past behavior is not in favor of a different outcome.Since I live in Texas, the land where the only thing keeping the turd which they call a brain from falling out of their big stupid mouths is the fact that coprolite is stuck (there are exceptions, including the rare intellectual and Austin for example), my choice is easier. The vast majority of Texans will vote for Trump because they enjoy inflicting misery on others and their favorite candidate Charlie Manson did not make parole again.So I think I understand the difficult moral dilemma most voters face but I have many reasons for my uncompromising stand beyond what is stated here. Two often cited reasons, the first rational, the second just an excuse for not voting your conscience. What prevents a person from voting progressive in all races other than a lack of candidates? What I do in this ugly state is vote against Republicans by voting for anyone else or not voting at all if running unopposed unless they give me a good reason to vote Republican (see Gary Johnson example above). For the record, I actually did vote for Obama in 2008 but since my vote in Texas -- a traitor state -- does not count and I am against interrupting wedding receptions with hellfire missile strikes, I voted for Gary Johnson in 2012. A vote for the lesser of two evils is still a vote for evil. The only way I can see myself voting for Clinton is if her VP is Elizabeth Warren or someone of similar attributes like your very own governor. At least I would be voting for someone even if secondary rather than voting for less, but still, evil.I hope Hillary can be forced to have human empathy but I have severe reservations. What I don't want is to see thousands or millions of dead men, women, and children offered as sacrifices to her ego, donors, and the almighty war machine. I do not want to be in a position where I see all these mutilated bodies and say "yes, I voted for that to happen."Perhaps being a veteran makes me despise warmongers. It is a trait more common among us than the general population, seeing what it does to people wounded either psychologically or physically or both.My reply to Lammy was primarily disgust at the irrationality of blaming Nader voters for the Presidency of Bush the Dullard when the blame lies solely with anyone stupid enough to vote for that immoral moron. I will not vote for evil unless there is some hope of being countered by good (see Warren example above).That's just how I roll.Edited by anglagard, : Eliminate double the

As Jill Stein ~says, the things #dRumpf says he will do are things #SHilIary has already done or supported.Meanwhile the DuNCe platform committee has turned down all the Sanders suggested planks, choosing instead to be milk-toast establishment appeasers. I'm sure this will rouse the voting public to turn out in large numbers ... What we are seeing is a study on how to lose an election, imhysao. Under the same "leadership" that lost the 2014 election by running without a single positive issue and running away from obamacare.They could have run of $15/hr then (yes it was happening then) and made a big play for equal pay for work of equal value.Pathetic, and not my fathers democrat party.Enjoy

My information sources indicate millennials voted for Sanders at an unprecedented 80+% rate regardless of race, class, or political affiliation. I have personally heard several times from members of that cohort that both parties are essentially their enemies. Obviously neither major party will likely survive this cohort in 20 years without major changes for the better.I don't care if I live to see it but I hope everyone else who still thinks politics is entirely encapsulated in a single bit (on = Democrat, off = Republican) live to be outvoted by those who prefer the greater good over the lesser evil.I have said this before but it is worth repeating. The whole edifice of government as a tool to redistribute wealth from the poor and middle class to the rich, those days are numbered. Millennials are far too sophisticated to fall for the rigged game. We are not dealing with Trump's base, who falsely accuse the other, be it immigrants, Muslims, Hispanics, Blacks, American Indians, the poor, etc. for their economic distress in order to distract them from the real culprits, which include the very low-life grifter they support (smells like Brexit supporters).
Unlike them, Millennials know exactly who is responsible for their misery - Trump, Ryan, any Bush, the despicable Walker, the despicable O'Connell, stupid Palin, her enabler McCain, rapacious Romney, brain surgeon Carson (physician, heal thyself), virtually all Republicans and Republicans masquerading as Democrats like Schultz and Clinton.Clearly the DNC is now in that list as well.Change or die.Millennials in general simply don't cater to and refuse to abide racism, misogyny, homophobia, wars of choice, environmental destruction, and economic inequality. The revolution is inevitable, suppression will only make it worse (don't believe me? ask the French or the Russians). Despite the fear of a Trump Presidency, many will not vote for evil, lesser or greater.The old paradigm will soon be dead, get over it one bit RAM computers.Edited by anglagard, : Fix clumsy sentenceEdited by anglagard, : Accuracy

Indeed, and what we need, badly, is instant runoff voting, even if just in the primaries (so that we get better candidates) until people figure out how simple it is. We also need paper ballots to count and recount, and to shift to second preferences as needed. What a great way to use the electoral college (provided we get to proportional allotment of delegates).A voting bill of rights might be necessary to keep election fraudsters from tampering with the voters access to the polls. People under 50 supported Sanders over Clinton, many of them inspired by having a candidate to vote FOR instead of against the lesser weevil. Given the overall demographics it may take just one or two more election cycles to get there.Particularly if a new working people party emerges, a melding of the Green Party, the Working Families Party and the Union coalition. The groundswell is there, with many Berners talking about voting for Jill Stein and with the numbers of people answering Bernie's call to get involved and run for office at local, state and national levels (some 20,000 have answered the call?).Many republicans are looking at the libertarian party as an alternative, with Johnson polling at 15% in a three-way with Trump and Clinton.This will get interesting.Enjoy

It don't wish to divert this topic into a big CU discussion, but I must add 1 comment.Quite a while back I heard a rational opinion from some moderate to liberal source. The opinions essence was that the SCOTUS Citizens United decision was correct, albeit undesirable. Thus the need for a constitutional amendment.I am not going to debate this detail further.Moose

Where did I say Nader and his supporters were solely responsible for blah blah blah?Try again. Let's look at it this way. Suppose there's been a murder. Man A got beaten to death by man B while man C held man A down.I would vote to have man B convicted and man C in accessory.That's essentially what happened. Bush won and wreaked havoc, but it was Nader that held Al Gore down and let Bush have his way.Like I said. Eff Nader and now eff Sanders. Unlike you, my boyfriend and I are still young guys who just got our lives started. We have way too much to lose to allow someone like Trump to get into office.Let me tell you a personal story. Just last Wednesday, my boyfriend called me and said one of our 2 dogs was gone from our fenced in backyard. I left my office immediately and came home. We finally found a hole the dog dug behind one of the bushes under the fence. The other side was our neighbor's fenced in yard behind our yard.So, we walked around the block and rung his bell. He came out. We asked him about our dog and he said yes sure he found our dog in his back yard playing with his dog. What did he do? He called the police. We eventually had to pay $218 to bail our dog out of jail.That's the kind of bullshit us homos still have to face.A bigot like Trump will be able to do thousands of times more damage than that homophobe who live behind our house, just like how Bush killed thousands of Americans and took us several steps backward in terms of human rights.I don't care about your ideals. I don't care how idealistic Sanders is. He's working as hard as he could to put Trump in the white house the way Nader did with Bush.A Trump presidency will ensure more decade long wars around the world.

I'm just old enough to remember the exact same rhetoric being said about Nader. The result was 8 years of Bush, thousands of American lives lost, at least a hundred thousand Iraqi lives lost, a destabilized Middle East, etc. You get the idea.You think Bush was bad? I'm willing to bet Trump will do a lot more damage than Bush ever did.

FiveThirtyEight's Nate Silver Predicts Hillary Clinton Wins Election Against Donald Trump - ABC NewsIf anyone remembers Nate Silver, he correctly predicted the outcome of the last two elections. Including the 2012 one where the GOP, using their own suspect polling mechanisms, were completely in shock at the outcome of the results. I still enjoy recalling Karl Rove's fat little face, all red, as he was watching the results come in and he refused to acknowledge that Ohio had gone to Obama.

I thought his head was going to explode, but sadly it didn't. Maybe this time......

One possible good outcome from an il Donald presidency based on the current responses from Republican Congressmen might be a break between the Executive and Legislative branches with enough Republican Congressmen siding with Democrat Congressmen in opposition to il Donald's ignorance and megalomania, and they control the purse strings.Unlike the case of the Weimar Republic Constitution our Constitution does not allow the President to dissolve the Legislature or call for new elections. Nor can our Constitution be modified simply by passage of legislation without involving the individual states.Fortunately there are limits on the Political Power of the US President.Plus there is always the Military solution.