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Author | Topic: Deflation-gate | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8529 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Well, that's nice. It' good to have the science on the table. Unfortunately, that table is in a different courtroom and is many months too late. The issues before the 2nd Circuit have nothing to do with deflated footballs. They have to do with contract law and the scope and legitimacy of arbitration. Maybe they should have had someone from the law school on their committee.
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
AZPaul3 writes: Well, that's nice. It' good to have the science on the table. Unfortunately, that table is in a different courtroom and is many months too late. The issues before the 2nd Circuit have nothing to do with deflated footballs. Although the Brady/NFLPA petition does not make errors of fact a grounds, it does mention issues of fact a number of times, as here on page 4:
quote: And the Guidelines for Appeals Courts: Definitions includes category "C. Clearly Erroneous" as a grounds for appeal. The first full sentence of the Standards of Review for Civil Proceedings says, "Findings of fact are reviewed for clear error." An arbitrator not only cannot make up his own process of industrial justice, he can't make up his own facts. The problem with Brady's facts is that they're ones of science and not of simple observation and deduction. Deflategate is not about whether it was Colonel Mustard in the library with the candlestick. It's not about fingerprints and guns and rifling marks and powder burns and blood spatters and DNA, things that although scientific fall into a simple enough category that everyone understands them and they are standard fare in TV crime dramas. But the Ideal Gas Law is evidently pretty challenging for the majority of people. When it first became part of the public debate people as prominent as an MIT professor, Bill Nye, and Neil deGrasse Tyson got it or parts of it wrong (in his defense, Tyson understood all the principles but failed to convert temperatures to degrees Kelvin when applying the Ideal Gas Law). Goodell used the Wells report which used the Exponent report to make up facts about Deflategate. What with two gauges measuring .4 PSI apart, and with referees not being certain which gauge they used for which footballs before the game, and with the initial and final temperature of each football being unknown, and with no direct evidence of ball tampering, and with no direct link between Brady and any tampering by Jastremski and McNally for which there is also no direct evidence, and with a purely natural explanation available, hard conclusions of ball deflation constitute "clear error." So while the petition includes far broader grounds and doesn't mention "clear error," it might possibly influence the court's decision about a rehearing. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
The New England Patriots today filed an Amicus Curiae brief in support of Tom Brady's petition for a rehearing before the full 2nd Circuit.
The brief states that there are two important issues: precedent and fundamental fairness. Concerning precedent the brief states that the 2nd Circuit majority ruling:
quote: Concerning fundamental fairness they say:
quote: The brief discusses issues of fact concerning the Wells report and football PSI in order to stress the magnitude of the Commissioner's error in not making Weiss's notes available. The brief also discusses the "paucity of evidence against Mr. Brady" that he had any "knowledge of or involvement in" football tampering. The brief also draws attention to a misstatement of fact by the Commissioner of which I wasn't previously aware. In his finding Goodell stated that he didn't find credible Brady's statement that he and Jastremski only discussed the preparation of footballs the day after the AFC Championship Game, that he believed they must have also talked about football deflation, and that Brady must therefore have been lying. This was untrue. Brady evidently did testify that he and Jastremski had talked about both football preparation *and* football deflation, but Goodell felt safe in the misrepresention because he didn't know that the transcripts of the arbitration hearing would later be ordered to be made public. Once public the misrepresentation became clear. This may be old news, I don't know, but this is the first I've heard about it. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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The AFL-CIO yesterday filed an Amicus Curiae brief in support of Tom Brady's petition for a rehearing before the full 2nd Circuit. This adds to the two amicus briefs already filed by professors and by the New England Patriots, and in this case adds some substantial weight.
The brief is so short and cogent that I shall simply quote from it. This is from the introductory letter:
quote: This is from the body of the brief:
quote: --Percy Edited by Percy, : Typo.
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Kenneth Feinberg yesterday filed an Amicus Curiae brief in support of Tom Brady's petition for a rehearing before the full 2nd Circuit. This adds to the three amicus briefs already filed by professors, by the New England Patriots, and by the AFL-CIO. Kenneth Feinberg served as a negotiator in some famous victims cases, such as 9/11, the BP oil spill, and the Boston Marathon bombing, and as arbitrator in cases involving the Zapruder film and Holocaust legal fees.
His brief is phrased in more legalistic language than the others and so I won't quote from it, but with this fourth friend of the court brief and Brady's own brief a clear consensus of legal opinion against the NFL is emerging:
Fairness has always been the key issue at the center of Deflategate. In science we like to say that the most extreme claims require the best evidence. In the law we'd like to believe that the most extreme penalties also require the best evidence, but now after nearly a year and a half there is no evidence of purposeful deflation and no evidence of Brady involvement. ESPN's Kevin Seifert comments along the same lines today:
quote: But courts of appeal do not rule on matters of fact. At best they might accept arguments on issues of fact as indications of bias. We're left hoping that Goodell's own arrogance caused him to commit violations that finally result in the correct penalty, i.e., none, even though the erroneous original finding can never be changed, at least not in the eyes of the NFL. --Percy Edited by Percy, : Name correction in last point of list: "Troy Vincent" => "Jeff Pash"
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Will it never end? How many friend of the court briefs supporting Brady are going to be filed?
However many it ends up being, yet another Amicus Curiae brief was filed yesterday in support of Tom Brady's petition for a rehearing before the full 2nd Circuit. I don't have time just at the moment to read and summarize this, but I will get to it as soon as time makes itself available. --Percy Edited by Percy, : Grammar.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Will it never end? How many friend of the court briefs supporting Brady are going to filed? As many as possible. I was involved with one patent case that was heard at the Supreme Court. I am not going to reveal enough details to allow figuring out who the client was. The head of the intellectual property section of our firm used every resource he could find to encourage influential folks from academia and industry to file amicus briefs on behalf of issues related to our client. Sometimes lawyers who practice in a particular area are chomping at the bit to file briefs and need little urging. For example when an import defendants rights case is before the supreme court, you can normally count on the ABA, groups of law professors, and defendant's attorney groups to file briefs. While this is not yet a Supreme Court case, re-hearings do face long odds in most courts and it behooves Brady's team to get as many amicus briefs as possible in front of the judges as they are deciding on whether to rehear. The NFL can probably rely on the long odds against getting a rehearing. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Strangely I can't find the article now, but Brady's legal team requested the amicus briefs from the professors, the AFL-CIO, Ken Feinberg and the Patriots. While several of the briefs were very well argued (I'm thinking of those from the AFL-CIO, Feinberg, and the law and industrial relations professors), that they were solicited and not spontaneous diminishes their value in my eyes. That doesn't make what they say less convincing, but it does put their motives into question, especially the AFL-CIO's, who explicitly stated their high level of concern about the impact on labor arbitration going forward. If their concern was so great, why did they have to wait to be asked before filing the brief?
When Brady first filed his petition for a rehearing the odds for success were put at around 1% or less. But as the specific legal issues become more and more clear in people's minds they've been thinking the odds are increasing. Myself I put them at 50/50 about now. The judges on the 2nd Circuit have to be considering the possibility that if the ruling is allowed to stand then the future will find them reviewing cases that cite Brady v. NFL, not a very tantalizing prospect. On the other hand maybe they're thinking the Supreme Court should look it, if they so choose. --Percy
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
If their concern was so great, why did they have to wait to be asked before filing the brief? I wouldn't make too much of this. Lawyers are generally busy folks, and writing an appellate brief is a substantial effort, with the quality of work bearing directly on the lawyer's reputation. The hours spent on the brief cannot be charged to the client and more than likely, in the case of a request for rehearing, that effort will be of zero effect.. Lawyers do perform pro-bono work, but they normally have their own ideas about where that time should be spent. Brady's team can increase the likelihood that someone will take on the project by doing at least some of the work to get lawyers together to work jointly on the brief. I don't see anything wrong with that.
but it does put their motives into question What questions would you ask about their current motives? Do you think being asked means that they were not as outraged or concerned as you believed them to be?
Myself I put them at 50/50 about now. You have some sense about these things? Because I do not practice in this area, I have no sense of where this judgment sits compared to other cases, and no way to estimate what some judge I've never been in front of might consider important. We do have a small sample of the judges on the panel and currently they have voted 2-1. Maybe the make up of the rest of the panel is dissimilar. Who knows. In the areas in which I do practice, my own history of trying to predict the outcome of appellate cases is rather dismal. A coin flip would be better. With the exception of patent cases that go before the Supreme Court, my own predictions are correct less than half of the time. In situations where I am involved in the case, my prediction track record is even lower. On the other hand, I have had nearly perfect success with Supreme Court patent cases by using the rule that the SC always does the opposite of what the patent attorney briefs ask for. I cannot recall a single patent case in the past decade that did not produce a result that the Patent Bar Briefs argued against. Perhaps you can do better. But if you cannot, that's no reflection on you. Nobody is real good at predicting what a federal appellate court will do. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
NoNukes writes: but it does put their motives into question What questions would you ask about their current motives? You're so literal sometimes. "Putting their motives into question" doesn't mean there are questions for them. It means that they stated motives (particularly in the case of the AFL-CIO) that could be called into question. If you want it phrased as a question then I guess it would be, "Doesn't the fact that you had to be asked to submit your brief mean that you overstated your level of concern about the impact of the Brady ruling on the future of arbitration?"
Myself I put them at 50/50 about now. You have some sense about these things? While I was never able to put anywhere near as fine a point on things as Kessler and Olson and the better amicus briefs, I did identify the key issues through each part of the process, so I'm pretty confident that the odds are way better than the thousand-to-one odds for most petitions for rehearing. As just a sports case it wouldn't have much of a chance, but emphasizing the impact to arbitration across the labor/management spectrum greatly improves the chances. Plus the dissenting judge was the chief judge of the 2nd Circuit. He'll be arguing for a rehearing, and a few of those amicus briefs will allow him to make extremely effectively argued points. I especially liked this from the AFL-CIO brief:
quote: That's pretty much sums up what I've been trying to say in this thread. It's interesting to note that the various briefs for rehearing state the same thing about neutral arbitrators in different terms. The AFL-CIO brief stresses that the Commissioner did not act as a neutral arbitrator, but Goodell is not a neutral arbitrator. As head of the NFL he is definitely a non-neutral arbitrator. The Feinberg brief correctly notes Goodell's non-neutral status, and makes clear that the appointment of non-neutral arbitrators is not uncommon, but makes the further point that a status of non-neutrality does not remove the arbitrator's obligation to act without bias. The AFL-CIO brief doesn't make the "non-neutral but unbiased" distinction and just uses the term "neutral" to imply a requirement that all arbitrators be unbiased. I prefer Feinberg's approach. --Percy
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
It means that they stated motives (particularly in the case of the AFL-CIO) that could be called into question. I think my question has merit. They still wrote the brief after being asked, and apparently did what you consider an excellent job in some cases. They must have some motive for writing the brief. So if they could be suspected of not writing the for the reasons you initially mentioned, what would other folks suspect to be their motive. In fact, this is not just about some random person. You said that having to be asked lowers your own opinion. The vast majority of appellate briefs are solicited. In really huge cases in front of the Supreme Court, particularly after cert is granted, more are unsolicited.
so I'm pretty confident that the odds are way better than the thousand-to-one odds for most petitions for rehearing. Your estimate was a fifty percent chance. That's about 500 times as large as the odds you are quoting for the typical petition. How many of those petitions are you familiar with? I admit that I've never read a rehearing petition for anything other than the Federal Circuit, but I'm not speculating beyond saying that rehearings are historically rarely granted. At least when you opine on the Supreme Court you have some familiarity with the personalities. My guess is that you know nothing about this particular court and even less regarding the relative merit of this petition and those others. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
NoNukes writes: I think my question has merit. Your question indicated a misunderstanding of what the term "called into question" means. You're a "literally interpret everything" machine.
Your estimate was a fifty percent chance. That's about 500 times as large as the odds you are quoting for the typical petition. Yes, way better than the usual odds. Naturally there's no way anyone could know the actual odds, I just used the term 50/50 in the sense of a toss-up. You have just *got* to get a better feel for when people are just talking casually and stop taking everything so literally. "Omigod, he mentioned an actual number, I'll challenge it. Is that 50.0%? How do you know it's not 50.1%?" How many of those petitions are you familiar with? I admit that I've never read a rehearing petition for anything other than the Federal Circuit, but I'm not speculating beyond saying that rehearings are historically rarely granted. At least when you opine on the Supreme Court you have some familiarity with the personalities. My guess is that you know nothing about this particular court and even less regarding the relative merit of this petition and those others. Well, good luck with your guesses. One of us was right about the science, right about arbitration, and right that the big issue is fairness, and it wasn't you. --Percy
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
our question indicated a misunderstanding of what the term "called into question" means. You're a "literally interpret everything" machine. If you say that some circumstance calls motive into question, what would be the best way for me to figure out what your reasoning is. I think I asked an appropriate question. It appears that you would rather fight about how literally I interpreted your question. Let me provide an alternative view regarding motivation. The motivation of most amicus briefs can be questioned. Most of them are by parties with an interest in the question, and many times that interest is not purely academic. In many cases lawyers will be arguing in favor of the law being interpreted in their clients benefit. Certainly, one might suspect that a union will submit a brief favoring union over management for example. One would want to read the brief and see if that were the case. If that were my suspicion, I think my opinion would not be enhanced by knowing that they submitted the brief with or without solicitation. I'd be less likely to question a brief from academia on the same basis.
Well, good luck with your guesses. One of us was right about the science, right about arbitration, and right that the big issue is fairness, and it wasn't you. Did you have an opinion about the outcome of the appellate court hearing before that began? For some reason this seems to be a topic that you take personally. In this case my initial question was intended to simply probe your opinion. It seems that few of my posts on the subject have failed to provoke a personal response, and that post in particularly that disagree with you on any aspect create even more emotion. There is nothing personal at stake here. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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NoNukes writes: There is nothing personal at stake here. Since there's nothing personal at stake here then maybe the next time you have a guess that I "know nothing" about something you could keep it to yourself. I know you don't have the same level of interest that I do and that you're not as informed, and I think that's fine. One would think that that would make you more circumspect with comments like I "know nothing," but it doesn't seem to. Plus your greater knowledge about the law seems to give you a false confidence that more often leads you to error than insight once you step away from legal minutia. I do not spew uninformed and unsupported opinions into my messages. I'm obviously very interested in Deflategate because I believe Tom Brady got a raw deal, so I read a lot on both sides of the issue (the New York and Buffalo papers are good for anti-Patriot perspectives), and I form my opinions out of what I read. I'm not alone in believing that the odds are closer to 50/50 now, for example see Brady Getting a Rehearing 'Closer to a Toss-up' Now. There have been a couple articles that included information about the makeup of the 2nd Circuit and how they might vote on the petition (can't seem to find them now). I don't mind having my opinions challenged, but I'm not going to remain silent when told I "know nothing." I'm going to object, on two grounds. First, I know much more than nothing about Brady's petition chances, but I consider that the minor ground. Much more important, second but not lesser, such accusations have no place in dispassionate and objective debate. If by evidence and argument you show that someone knows nothing, fine. I did already explain what "calling their motives into question" means when I said it could be phrased like this: "Doesn't the fact that you had to be asked to submit your brief mean that you overstated your level of concern about the impact of the Brady ruling on the future of arbitration?" --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
However Brady fares before the 2nd Circuit and (if necessary) the Supreme Court, it seems inevitable that it will be the enduring judgment of most of the country that Brady is guilty of football tampering, and that this is further evidence that the "Cheatriots" deserve their reputation.
It also seems inevitable that Goodell's reputation as a clown when it comes to administering justice within the NFL will be just as enduring. A couple recent articles make clear why it is deserved:
The first article, written by lawyer/arbitrator David Evans, speaks for itself:
quote: The second article requires a bit of explanation. It notes the parallels between the Brady case and the Richie Incognito case. When I was listing prior Goodell misadventures the case of Richie Incognito did not come to mind, but now because of a suit brought by former Miami offensive line coach Jim Turner we can see the parallels to Deflategate. Lawyer Ted Wells was the independent investigator in both cases, and as Turner bluntly put it, "Independent investigator my [butt]." In a sport as coarse as football where the most common word of sneaked recorded conversations is "bleep" it defies belief that a player could be suspended for verbal abuse and harassment of a teammate, yet that's what happened to Rickie Incognito. When the accusations came to light he was suspended from the Miami Dolphins for the rest of the 2013 season. The NFL hired Ted Wells to investigate, and one result was that the Dophins fired offensive line coach Jim Turner, who was also found culpable. Turner filed suit against Ted Wells and his law firm in mid-2015. The charges in the Turner lawsuit parallel the Brady claims, that a "high ranking National Football League official...attended many of the interviews conducted during their supposedly independent investigation." During Deflategate arbitration Brady was denied access to the internal notes and communications from the NFL's law firm, one of the chief grounds of the appeal challenge to the 2nd Circuit. Turner had no arbitration hearing because as a coach he is not a member of the NFLPA and has no right to arbitration, but he has filed for discovery of this same information, and Wells is fighting it tooth and nail (his attempt to avoid discovery has already been denied by the court once, but last week he filed another request). One wonders why and can be forgiven for suspecting that the information will further document a pattern of NFL behavior designed to yield the result they want while denying people due process. --Percy
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