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Author | Topic: New Geocentrist Blunder | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
herebedragons Member (Idle past 857 days) Posts: 1517 From: Michigan Joined: |
Much like the Catholic Church had explained ALL religious truth, and were unquestionable in their proclamation of that truth, Aristotle was regarded as the absolute and final authority on the truth of all physical matters. Of course, had anything that Aristotle taught about the physical world conflicted with the Catholic teaching of the Bible, they would have rejected it. Instead, Aristotle's ideas fit well within the framework of the Bible.
So yes, the Catholic Church embraced Aristotle, but it was the absolute, unquestionable authority that was the issue, not the association itself. Sound familiar?
It was really Aristotle that inspired the Roman Church and was the cause of the persecution of Galileo, not the Bible, although I'm sure they tried to put it all together as if the Bible said the same thing, which it doesn't. I would be interested to see the evidence from the Bible for a heliocentric model of the universe. I say a straight-forward, simple reading of the Bible puts it sharply at odds with Copernicus and Galileo's discoveries. There are those who argue that it was Copernicus and not Darwin who began the descent of modern man into accepting evidence external from the Bible over the Biblical revelation itself. Perhaps you could build a case for the Bible teaching heliocentricism as opposed to geocentricism? Perhaps you could debunk the claim that ancient Hebrew cosmology looked something like the image below?
The image includes references to pertinent scriptures to get you started. Thanks, HBDWhoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem. Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.
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herebedragons Member (Idle past 857 days) Posts: 1517 From: Michigan Joined: |
I don't think there is Biblical evidence for either a geocentric or heliocentric universe. I completely agree, but I am not a Biblical-literalist / inerrantist.
The picture you post basically gives the natural understanding of how things look from earth Not exactly. It is a model of cosmology based on ancient Hebrew writings. So it's not an image of how things look from the ground, but how the ancient Hebrews described the cosmos based on their worldview.
but doesn't provide any case for a geocentric universe as such Sure it does. The earth is stationary and the entire cosmos moves around in the "firmament." That IS geocentric.
What Galileo said doesn't contradict the way things look from earth anyway, But it does contradict specific statements from the Bible. I didn't want to make this another discussion of how the Bible is in error, so I thought it could be approached slightly different. I thought maybe you could support the case that the Bible DOES support heliocentricism without having to resort to evidence from outside the Bible. HBDWhoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem. Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.
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herebedragons Member (Idle past 857 days) Posts: 1517 From: Michigan Joined:
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I don't think that anyone who subscribes to geocentricism is going to be concerned about fine-tuning. In fact, many see this fine-tuning as evidence that the universe was created by God in a miraculous way (read that: in the way they believe it was done). So I'm not sure that going from fine-tuning in the nth degree to fine-tuning in the (n*n)th degree is going to make any difference.
I think an easier way to explain the problem is how a Ptolemaic model cannot be explain by the forces and theories we can observe and verify. For instance, I am sure you have seen the orbits of the planets in a geocentric model that look like they have been drawn with a Spirograph. There is no way that gravity, as we know it and understand it could explain orbits like those. So, from the perspective of the earth the orbits could be following those crazy paths, and it would match our observations. However, we would have to completely discard our understanding of gravity along with several other observable and verifiable phenomenon such as parallax, conservation of momentum, angular momentum, etc. Interestingly, one could also imagine an earth that was created a mere 6,000 years ago that looks just like it does today. But in the same way, the processes we know and observe could never explain that model. Mutation, adaptation, plate tectonics, and many more, would need to be completely revised and probably even scraped to make sense of a world that functioned in that way. Of course, anyone who subscribes to geocentricism would not be swayed by those arguments either HBDWhoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem. Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.
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herebedragons Member (Idle past 857 days) Posts: 1517 From: Michigan Joined: |
The Ptolemaic system is the geocentric model that was developed by Claudius Ptolemaeus. It was pretty much the standard model of the cosmos for about 1,500 years.
Making the Biblical decriptions into a scientific claim is the problem Yes, I agree. But that is exactly what is being done with youth earth creationist models.
because it's only a descriptive system of how things look from Earth, and shouldn't become an obstacle to changing to a heliocentric perspective. But, the objection is that a simple, literal reading of the Bible gives an image of a geocentric model and not heliocentric. The change in models came from evidence that was gather externally from the Bible, not from the Biblical passages themselves. In this way it is no different than evolutionary models supplanting 6-day creation models. An understanding of the physical world that had a long standing, well established acceptance by the orthodox religious institution (which you value very highly) was rejected in favor of scientific discoveries (which you believe are fraught with uncertainties). It is just like our discussion about the "windows of heaven" we had some time ago. Why consider the term "windows of heaven" to be understood as figurative when it is in the midst of a whole bunch of stuff that is meant to be taken literally? Is it because we know from evidence external to the Bible that there is no such thing as "windows of heaven?" From a literalistic, inerrant perspective, the Bible DOES have a clear position on geocentricism. So, why are you willing to abandon that clear Biblical teaching for the fallacies of scientific discovery?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVqT7-XZYTYhttp://www.jesus-is-lord.com/geocentr.htm HBDWhoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem. Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.
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herebedragons Member (Idle past 857 days) Posts: 1517 From: Michigan Joined:
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How about these Protestant giants?
quote: quote: quote: quote: John Calvin couldn't possibly be wrong about this could he? How about Gerardus Bouw, a Baptist.
quote: Source: Here Actually a pretty good blog. Has some of the same ideas that I tried to get across, but uses more words.
quote: quote: HBDWhoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem. Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.
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herebedragons Member (Idle past 857 days) Posts: 1517 From: Michigan Joined: |
I just don't see how it fits into a discussion of the Bible's geocentric views Dr A is using the two ideas interchangeably. Technically, the Biblical position is not Ptolemaic, but its still the basic idea that the earth is stationary and the rest of the universe is what is moving.
which aren't a scientific system, just a description of what is observed of the sky from Earth. Well, that's your opinion, sure. But you haven't defended it with any Biblical support. All you have is fallible human science and personal opinion.
The image you posted, on the other hand, reflects an interpretation of the heavens as even we see them now from Earth. Not really. It relies on a lot of assumptions of things we never observe. Like - pillars, water under the earth, Sheol, etc.
I'm not up to looking at the links, is there anything there I really need to see? The video is actually kind of interesting, if you can get past the guys ultra-boring voice. The Jesus-Is-Lord link (a site that you previously gave very high marks to) outlines the scientific and Biblical case for geocentricism. Some excerpts:
quote: quote: quote: quote: ** this sentence would work equally as well if you substitute Darwinian for Copernican. Good stuff, good stuff. How can you NOT be a geocentrist??
That's about the extent of my willingness to entertain geocentrism. So you don't believe EVERYTHING the Bible says. Hmmm. HBDWhoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem. Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.
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