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Author Topic:   Federal Gridlock
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 16 of 50 (741224)
11-10-2014 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by nwr
11-10-2014 12:53 PM


ballot initiatives to move forward on issues around politicians
I'm using linux to write this post.
Which version? I have Ubuntu, but haven't upgraded to 14 yet.
As for the dems - I don't like them at all. They seem to have cornered the market on bungling incompetence. Yet I usually vote for them, because the Republicans are completely unfit to govern.
And I don't vote for anybody that is unopposed.
So what do you think about using ballot initiatives to get the issues to the public for direct votes?
Getting items on the ballots so people can vote on them directly goes around the political representatives in order to get things done, as a populist movement that can cross party lines to find solutions. These can be written up as bills to be passed, so it would be like ALEC for people.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by nwr, posted 11-10-2014 12:53 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by nwr, posted 11-10-2014 3:47 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 50 (741229)
11-10-2014 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by NoNukes
11-10-2014 1:04 PM


Re: Cruz and McConnell
'Like it or leave it' arguments are stupid regardless of whether liberals are conservatives make them.
Well it wasn't a 'like it or leave it' argument. It was a 'stop saying you want small government because we all know what small government leads to and that no one would want to live in such a shitty country' argument.
Coyote is advocating for a failed state. I think it is perfectly sensible for someone to point out to him what a failed state really looks like; and perhaps suggest that he go live in one for a while to see if he still likes it so much.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by NoNukes, posted 11-10-2014 1:04 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Coyote, posted 11-10-2014 3:11 PM Jon has replied
 Message 19 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-10-2014 3:21 PM Jon has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 18 of 50 (741231)
11-10-2014 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Jon
11-10-2014 2:57 PM


Re: Cruz and McConnell
Coyote is advocating for a failed state.
Bullshit.
Go back and read what I actually said and try again.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Jon, posted 11-10-2014 2:57 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Jon, posted 11-10-2014 5:03 PM Coyote has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 50 (741235)
11-10-2014 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Jon
11-10-2014 2:57 PM


Re: Cruz and McConnell
It was a 'stop saying you want small government because we all know what small government leads to and that no one would want to live in such a shitty country' argument.
I want small government.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Jon, posted 11-10-2014 2:57 PM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by ringo, posted 11-12-2014 12:11 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 48 by Taq, posted 11-17-2014 6:12 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 20 of 50 (741236)
11-10-2014 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Taz
11-10-2014 6:47 AM


voter initiatives
Look at the results of what people want. Minimum wage increase, ACA, and everything else that the dems fight for. And yet people voted for the rep party, e party that is against all those things.
So you would be in favor of using voter initiates on election ballots to deal with these issues directly rather than relying on the politicians?
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Taz, posted 11-10-2014 6:47 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Taz, posted 11-11-2014 9:30 AM RAZD has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 21 of 50 (741240)
11-10-2014 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by RAZD
11-10-2014 2:36 PM


Re: ballot initiatives to move forward on issues around politicians
Which version?
Opensuse 13.2 (hot off the press).
So what do you think about using ballot initiatives to get the issues to the public for direct votes?
It's just another way for corporate dollars to buy influence.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by RAZD, posted 11-10-2014 2:36 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 50 (741251)
11-10-2014 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Coyote
11-10-2014 3:11 PM


Re: Cruz and McConnell
That's exactly what you want.
You want a government that makes no decisions. You want a government that provides no public assistance. That's two out of four of the criteria: failed state (from Wikipedia). And once you have those two, the other follow right in line.
Now you probably don't want all the problems that go along with a failed state, but they're part of the package whether you like it or not.
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Coyote, posted 11-10-2014 3:11 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Coyote, posted 11-10-2014 5:24 PM Jon has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 23 of 50 (741254)
11-10-2014 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Jon
11-10-2014 5:03 PM


Re: Cruz and McConnell
That's exactly what you want.
More bullshit.
You want a government that makes no decisions. You want a government that provides no public assistance.
Still more bullshit.
That's two out of four of the criteria: failed state (from Wikipedia). And once you have those two, the other follow right in line.
You really should try to read what others write rather than automatically demonizing anyone who you think disagrees with you.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Jon, posted 11-10-2014 5:03 PM Jon has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 24 of 50 (741303)
11-11-2014 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by RAZD
11-10-2014 3:23 PM


Re: voter initiatives
Well, no. I don't believe in democracy, period.
Anyone remember back when Romney was running and half or so of republicans believed Romney gave the order to kill Bin Laden?
Democracy only works if the typical voter has a more vested interest in it. As it currently stands, they don't.
Unemployment is the lowest we've seen for, like, forever. DADT is out the door. Gay service men and women are serving openly. The deficit is way down. More people are covered than ever before. We're not fighting 2 wars anymore. Etc.
My elderly parents just officially switched from hating Obama to loving him because of the benefits he's brought them.
And yet, people are saying Obama is the worst president in history. Really? Really? Despite the gridlock, this president has done more for the good of the country than Bush ever did.
Democracy only works when the typical voter votes for the people's best interest, not who hates Obama and gay people more.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by RAZD, posted 11-10-2014 3:23 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Jon, posted 11-11-2014 9:47 AM Taz has replied
 Message 47 by RAZD, posted 11-17-2014 2:22 PM Taz has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 50 (741304)
11-11-2014 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Taz
11-11-2014 9:30 AM


Re: voter initiatives
Democracy only works when the typical voter votes for the people's best interest, not who hates Obama and gay people more.
If that is who the people feel is in their best interest, then they're getting exactly what they want.
So it seems to be working just fine.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Taz, posted 11-11-2014 9:30 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Taz, posted 11-11-2014 10:11 AM Jon has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 26 of 50 (741306)
11-11-2014 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Jon
11-11-2014 9:47 AM


Re: voter initiatives
Well, no. This past congressional election proves my point, that the typical voters do not vote for their best interest but rather vote against it.
Again, most people support raising the minimum wage, the ACA, repeal of DADT, etc. And yet, they voted for the party that is against all those things.
I torture myself by watching the republican debates and fox news commentaries. This past round of discussions among the republicans pretty much entails who hates Obama and gay people more.
There's even a Latin phrase for what the republicans have been doing. It translates to slander boldly, something always sticks.
And unfortunately, the typical voters have been eating the shit that the republican party has been spewing out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Jon, posted 11-11-2014 9:47 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Jon, posted 11-11-2014 11:24 AM Taz has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 50 (741310)
11-11-2014 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Taz
11-11-2014 10:11 AM


Re: voter initiatives
This past congressional election proves my point, that the typical voters do not vote for their best interest but rather vote against it.
Who are you to decide their best interest?
They hate Obama and gay people; they now have a bunch of people representing them who also hate Obama and gay people.
It sounds like they are getting exactly what they want.
Again, most people support raising the minimum wage, the ACA, repeal of DADT, etc. And yet, they voted for the party that is against all those things.
No. Most people didn't vote. The ones who did vote hate minimum wage, the ACA, and repeal of DADT, etc. They are getting exactly what they want.
And the people who didn't vote are getting exactly what they want: a country where decisions are made by other people and they never need bother to participate.
There's even a Latin phrase for what the republicans have been doing. It translates to slander boldly, something always sticks.
To be fair, both parties are full of nothing but slander.
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Taz, posted 11-11-2014 10:11 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Taz, posted 11-12-2014 7:14 AM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


(1)
Message 28 of 50 (741395)
11-12-2014 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Jon
11-11-2014 11:24 AM


Re: voter initiatives
I'm god, silly. I know what's best for everyone.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Jon, posted 11-11-2014 11:24 AM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 29 of 50 (741451)
11-12-2014 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by New Cat's Eye
11-10-2014 3:21 PM


Cat's Eye writes:
I want small government.
I don't think anybody really wants small government. Our Canadian Conservatives (who are slightly to the left of your liberals) typically want the government to do "more with less". That's like saying people should feed two families with half the food budget - it makes no sense in any other context, yet conservatives think it makes sense for government.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-10-2014 3:21 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-12-2014 12:30 PM ringo has replied
 Message 31 by NosyNed, posted 11-12-2014 1:05 PM ringo has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 50 (741454)
11-12-2014 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by ringo
11-12-2014 12:11 PM


Cat's Eye writes:
I want small government.
I don't think anybody really wants small government.
Well I think I want small government, but I'm not sure where the qualification of being small starts...
I suppose I should have said that I want smaller government.
Most of us (U.S.) think the government is doing too much:
I really wish the feds would just mind their own business.
They can just ignore me and I'll be happy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by ringo, posted 11-12-2014 12:11 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 11-13-2014 10:43 AM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 34 by Jon, posted 11-13-2014 11:54 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
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