Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Ebola
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 111 (738796)
10-16-2014 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Jon
10-16-2014 12:40 AM


Re: The Big Questions
But it is very different from the sorts of animals typically hunted in the Midwest.
Huh? I wonder why those Africans wouldn't hunt the same kind of animals that are indigenous to the American midwest?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Jon, posted 10-16-2014 12:40 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Jon, posted 10-16-2014 1:44 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 111 (738797)
10-16-2014 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Jon
10-16-2014 12:46 AM


Re: Stupidity is Spreading Ebola
When an entire region is plagued by a deadly virus, it is okay to fly people in and out of that region.
I know the answer. Do you?
I hear ya bro. Screw flying in a bunch of soldiers, doctors, and other health workers. Let's just blow up the Suez Canal, isolate Africa from everywhere else, and let them give Ebola to each other. I'm sure we can keep Ebola to just the one continent forever if we do the right thing.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Jon, posted 10-16-2014 12:46 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Jon, posted 10-16-2014 1:57 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 111 (738800)
10-16-2014 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by NoNukes
10-16-2014 1:02 AM


Re: The Big Questions
Huh? I wonder why those Africans wouldn't hunt the same kind of animals that are indigenous to the American midwest?
You should wonder why they don't eat meat from domesticated animals known to be safe.
But then again, no one really needs to wonder why they don't. We all know why.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by NoNukes, posted 10-16-2014 1:02 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by NoNukes, posted 10-17-2014 4:42 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 34 of 111 (738801)
10-16-2014 1:57 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by NoNukes
10-16-2014 1:16 AM


Re: Stupidity is Spreading Ebola
I hear ya bro. Screw flying in a bunch of soldiers, doctors, and other health workers. Let's just blow up the Suez Canal, isolate Africa from everywhere else, and let them give Ebola to each other. I'm sure we can keep Ebola to just the one continent forever if we do the right thing.
Essentially, yes. The Ebola pandemic is largely the result of failed states incapable of providing even the basics of necessities to their citizens.
It's not that it's impossible for West Africa to do anything meaningful about Ebola; but that it's impossible for the failed states of West Africa to do anything meaningful about Ebola.
I know it feels good to treat these nations as though they are capable, but they are clearly not. Their failure to be capable and the West's failure to acknowledge theirs has gone a long way in allowing this outbreak to spread.
The right response was to quarantine the region until it got its shit together.
Wanna help? Send people in. No need to let them back out, though, until the job is done.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by NoNukes, posted 10-16-2014 1:16 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by sfs, posted 10-16-2014 7:39 AM Jon has replied
 Message 38 by NoNukes, posted 10-16-2014 7:48 AM Jon has not replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 35 of 111 (738803)
10-16-2014 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Percy
10-15-2014 10:56 AM


As some said early on, the evidence seems to point toward improperly followed procedures. I was thinking about how one would remove a pair of latex gloves after handling an Ebola patient without contaminating oneself. Once you've pulled the right one off, how do you pull the left one off without touching it with your right hand.
You remove both at once. Cross your arms so that you palms face, then you pinch a region towards the wrist of the glove and pull, both gloves end up together and inside-out. This is standard procedure in biological labs since we routinely end up with gloves contaminated with something.
Double gloving is a back-up although I'd worry that - like wearing two condoms - it might increase the risk of breakages.
Never worked in a hazard suit so I'm not sure how you remove those - however, I'd be confident that there is a known and well understood technique for safe removal. The problem is that the staff involved are not experienced and trained for this kind of thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Percy, posted 10-15-2014 10:56 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
sfs
Member (Idle past 2533 days)
Posts: 464
From: Cambridge, MA USA
Joined: 08-27-2003


Message 36 of 111 (738811)
10-16-2014 7:08 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Jon
10-16-2014 12:40 AM


Re: The Big Questions
quote:
But it is very different from the sorts of animals typically hunted in the Midwest.
Yes, people tend to hunt the animals that actually live in their area -- unless they're hindered by bad cultural practices, that is.
quote:
Being malnourished is.
Being malnourished is not a cultural practice. Just quit digging.
(It's not like domesticated animals are necessarily any safer than wild game, by the way. They've brought us MERS, SARS and every episode of pandemic influenza. )

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Jon, posted 10-16-2014 12:40 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Jon, posted 10-16-2014 9:39 AM sfs has replied

  
sfs
Member (Idle past 2533 days)
Posts: 464
From: Cambridge, MA USA
Joined: 08-27-2003


(2)
Message 37 of 111 (738813)
10-16-2014 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Jon
10-16-2014 1:57 AM


Re: Stupidity is Spreading Ebola
quote:
Essentially, yes. The Ebola pandemic is largely the result of failed states incapable of providing even the basics of necessities to their citizens.
It's not that it's impossible for West Africa to do anything meaningful about Ebola; but that it's impossible for the failed states of West Africa to do anything meaningful about Ebola.
I know it feels good to treat these nations as though they are capable, but they are clearly not. Their failure to be capable and the West's failure to acknowledge theirs has gone a long way in allowing this outbreak to spread.
I have seen no failure by the West to acknowledge the the states in question are screwed up. In fact, every account of the outbreak seems to mention that fact. The failure of the rest of the world to respond has much more to do with their indifference, short-sightedness and fuck-witted insistence on cutting budgets.
quote:
The right response was to quarantine the region until it got its shit together.
Congratulations. Short of actually shipping infected people to major cities around the world, you've hit on possibly the worst strategy for containing the epidemic. You can't quarantine the region. The danger from the outbreak isn't that an infected person will fly to Dallas -- Dallas can handle Ebola, their own bad cultural practices notwithstanding -- but that it will continue to spread indefinitely until it becomes a global pandemic. Borders are porous, especially in that region, and they continue to leak cases even after they've been closed. If you want to stop it, you have to stop it where it is. And since, as you point out, they're not capable of stopping it themselves, that means the rest of the world has to be able to go there.
quote:
Wanna help? Send people in. No need to let them back out, though, until the job is done.
People won't go in unless they're allowed to come back out again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Jon, posted 10-16-2014 1:57 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Jon, posted 10-16-2014 9:31 AM sfs has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 111 (738815)
10-16-2014 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Jon
10-16-2014 1:57 AM


Re: Stupidity is Spreading Ebola
Sorry. sfs covered everything.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Jon, posted 10-16-2014 1:57 AM Jon has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 111 (738821)
10-16-2014 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by sfs
10-16-2014 7:39 AM


Re: Stupidity is Spreading Ebola
I have seen no failure by the West to acknowledge the the states in question are screwed up. In fact, every account of the outbreak seems to mention that fact. The failure of the rest of the world to respond has much more to do with their indifference, short-sightedness and fuck-witted insistence on cutting budgets.
The rest of the world didn't fail in deciding not to quarantine the region? It didn't fail in deciding that travel in and out of the region would still be allowed? It didn't fail in not mentioning in the popular media that the Ebola virus in humans comes from eating tainted vermin much like AIDS?
This entire outbreak has been plagued with failure from every angle.
Congratulations. Short of actually shipping infected people to major cities around the world, you've hit on possibly the worst strategy for containing the epidemic. You can't quarantine the region. The danger from the outbreak isn't that an infected person will fly to Dallas -- Dallas can handle Ebola, their own bad cultural practices notwithstanding -- but that it will continue to spread indefinitely until it becomes a global pandemic. Borders are porous, especially in that region, and they continue to leak cases even after they've been closed. If you want to stop it, you have to stop it where it is. And since, as you point out, they're not capable of stopping it themselves, that means the rest of the world has to be able to go there.
And yet, if flights in and out of the region had been suspended, there would be no cases in Europe or America.
quote:
Wanna help? Send people in. No need to let them back out, though, until the job is done.
People won't go in unless they're allowed to come back out again.
As I said: No need to let them back out, though, until the job is done.
And if they do need to leave before the disease is eradicated, there are ways to work through that.
The disease has a known incubation period. It does no good to screen for symptoms at airports because infected people could be in asymptomatic stages. If air travel to and from the region is required, it is not at all unreasonable to limit it to essential persons and only allow them out of the region after they have been quarantined for 1.5 the max incubation period to ensure they have not contracted the disease.
Is this unreasonable?
Do you think this might have gone a long way in preventing the spread of the disease to Europe and America?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by sfs, posted 10-16-2014 7:39 AM sfs has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by sfs, posted 10-16-2014 10:57 AM Jon has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 111 (738822)
10-16-2014 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by sfs
10-16-2014 7:08 AM


Re: The Big Questions
Being malnourished is not a cultural practice.
Sure it is. It is a reflection on the failed states and their inability to provide basic necessities.
Or are you saying that governments and the things they do aren't part of a society's cultural practices?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by sfs, posted 10-16-2014 7:08 AM sfs has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by sfs, posted 10-16-2014 11:04 AM Jon has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 41 of 111 (738825)
10-16-2014 10:19 AM


Another huge mistake
CDC apparently allowed nurse II to board and fly to Cleveland with a low grade fever. Thus exposing yet more people.
What is wrong with the CDC?? I am a bit distressed how caviler the CDC seems to be taking this. Now we have a Hospital, a airline and hundreds of more potential exposures due to lack of common sense imo.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

  
sfs
Member (Idle past 2533 days)
Posts: 464
From: Cambridge, MA USA
Joined: 08-27-2003


Message 42 of 111 (738829)
10-16-2014 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Jon
10-16-2014 9:31 AM


Re: Stupidity is Spreading Ebola
quote:
The rest of the world didn't fail in deciding not to quarantine the region? It didn't fail in deciding that travel in and out of the region would still be allowed? It didn't fail in not mentioning in the popular media that the Ebola virus in humans comes from eating tainted vermin much like AIDS?
No, the rest of the world failed by inadequately implementing control measures that actually work, rather than your ridiculous suggestions. (And the fact that Ebola outbreaks originate in bushmeat has been all over the popular media.)
quote:
And yet, if flights in and out of the region had been suspended, there would be no cases in Europe or America.
Which would have done nothing at all to stem the outbreak. We could reduce mortality and morbidity in the US far more by infringing personal liberties in other ways than by restricting travel to West Africa. (Mind you, if I were in charge of Haiti or Pakistan or the like, I'd probably quarantine anyone coming from the three outbreak countries, because countries like that may not be able to handle Ebola.)
quote:
As I said: No need to let them back out, though, until the job is done.
And as I said, then they won't go. The outbreak is going to last at least a year, and possibly much longer. Why are you trying to make it harder to control it?
quote:
The disease has a known incubation period. It does no good to screen for symptoms at airports because infected people could be in asymptomatic stages. If air travel to and from the region is required, it is not at all unreasonable to limit it to essential persons and only allow them out of the region after they have been quarantined for 1.5 the max incubation period to ensure they have not contracted the disease.
Is this unreasonable?
If that were logistically possible, it might be effective in eliminating the tiny risk (relative to many public health problems) posed by Ebola cases entering the US and Europe. But as I said, we could save far more lives by imposing other restrictions that you would probably be less happy with.
quote:
Do you think this might have gone a long way in preventing the spread of the disease to Europe and America?
Why should I care about it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Jon, posted 10-16-2014 9:31 AM Jon has not replied

  
sfs
Member (Idle past 2533 days)
Posts: 464
From: Cambridge, MA USA
Joined: 08-27-2003


Message 43 of 111 (738830)
10-16-2014 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Jon
10-16-2014 9:39 AM


Re: The Big Questions
quote:
Sure it is. It is a reflection on the failed states and their inability to provide basic necessities.
Or are you saying that governments and the things they do aren't part of a society's cultural practices?
I'm saying that "being malnourished" is not a practice of any kind. "Malnourished" is a condition, and "being" is not a practice. Many cultural practices have contributed to that condition; some of those practices are local, and some exist in the outside world. I'm all in favor of reducing poverty and malnutrition around the world. Telling people not to eat bushmeat does nothing to contribute to that goal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Jon, posted 10-16-2014 9:39 AM Jon has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 44 of 111 (738839)
10-16-2014 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Jon
10-14-2014 7:24 PM


Re: Hard to Get - Harder to Get Rid Of
I'm not sure that's very reassuring.
The disease has a high mortality rate and I think that is what makes it a worrisome issue, not the technicalities on how it is spread.
Which of these is more worrisome:
1. A disease with a 90% mortality rate that infects 10,000 people.
2. A disease with a 0.1% mortality rate that infects 1 billion people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Jon, posted 10-14-2014 7:24 PM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by sfs, posted 10-16-2014 1:50 PM Taq has replied
 Message 49 by RAZD, posted 10-16-2014 2:06 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 45 of 111 (738841)
10-16-2014 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by sfs
10-16-2014 12:16 AM


You don't have to be paranoid or hysterical to be concerned about an uncontrolled epidemic of a disease with a 70% case fatality rate and virtually no natural immunity.
An R0 of 2 is lower than for many viruses, but it's about the same as most influenza epidemics. I don't find that very reassuring.
I was under the impression that such diseases as measles had an R0>2, sometimes in the double digits. Is this not the case?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by sfs, posted 10-16-2014 12:16 AM sfs has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by sfs, posted 10-16-2014 1:48 PM Taq has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024