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Author Topic:   Religious children have harder time between fact and fiction
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 995
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


Message 1 of 63 (733843)
07-22-2014 9:46 AM


An interesting read from a study performed and published in Cognitive Science.
Children Exposed To Religion Have Difficulty Distinguishing Fact From Fiction, Study Finds | HuffPost Latest News
quote:
Researchers presented 5- and 6-year-old children from both public and parochial schools with three different types of stories -- religious, fantastical and realistic —- in an effort to gauge how well they could identify narratives with impossible elements as fictional.
The study found that, of the 66 participants, children who went to church or were enrolled in a parochial school were significantly less able than secular children to identify supernatural elements, such as talking animals, as fictional.
They don't have the actual numbers and counts from the study; would be interesting to see just how much of a difference it actually makes.

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 2 of 63 (733844)
07-22-2014 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Diomedes
07-22-2014 9:46 AM


Obvious or nah?
The answer is obvious. They dont believe that those stories are fictional---at least the Biblical ones.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
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Diomedes
Member
Posts: 995
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


Message 3 of 63 (733845)
07-22-2014 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Phat
07-22-2014 9:56 AM


Re: Obvious or nah?
The answer is obvious. They dont believe that those stories are fictional---at least the Biblical ones.
I think you missed the point. The religious children are actually indicating that they believe the stories in clearly fictional material (i.e. The Jungle Book) are actually factual. While secular children seem to be able to distinguish fact from fiction more easily.

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 4 of 63 (733868)
07-22-2014 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Diomedes
07-22-2014 9:46 AM


Diomedes writes:
They don't have the actual numbers and counts from the study
It's a fairly technical paper - I can email you the pdf if you'd like to pm your address
2.1.1. Participants
A total of sixty-six 5- and 6-year-old children participated (M = 5;8, SD = 6 months,
range: 4;11—6;7, 36 female). Participants were recruited from kindergarten classrooms in
public schools (n = 32) and parochial schools (n = 34) in Cambridge, MA, and the surrounding
area. Most participants were White (61%), although other ethnicities were represented
(21% Asian American, 18% African American). Irrespective of whether they
attended a public school or a parochial school, children were asked about church attendance.
Specifically, after presentation of the final story, children were asked, Does your family go
to services? Children who said yes were categorized as churchgoers. Children who said
no were categorized as non-churchgoers. This description of children’s religious home life
was confirmed through consultation with the kindergarten teachers. The majority of children
who said that they did attend services attended Christian services. We excluded the additional
few children who said that they attended Jewish Temple (n = 6), because several of
the stories used in the study are based on the New Testament (see Appendix A) and therefore
would be likely to be less familiar to children who grew up in a Jewish family. For the
32 children who attended public school, 16 children (M = 5;7 years, SD = 5 months, 7
females) were identified as churchgoers. The remaining 16 children (M = 5;8 years, SD = 6
months, 8 females) were identified as non-churchgoers. For the 34 children who attended
parochial school, 16 children (M = 5;9, SD = 5 months, 10 females) were identified as
churchgoers. The remaining 18 children (M = 5;9, SD = 7 months, 10 females) were identified
as non-churchgoers.
In summary, three groups of children had exposure to religion: churchgoers who
attended public school; non-churchgoers who attended parochial school; and churchgoers
who attended parochial school. A fourth group of childrennon-churchgoers attending
public schoolhad no exposure to religion in either church or school.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 5 of 63 (733869)
07-22-2014 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Diomedes
07-22-2014 9:46 AM


I'm not sure it's necessary for 5-and-6-year-olds to distinguish between fact and fiction. If they can voluntarily give up their belief in Santa Claus a few years later, it doesn't seem to be much of a problem.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 63 (733881)
07-22-2014 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by ringo
07-22-2014 11:55 AM


I'm not sure it's necessary for 5-I'm not sure it's necessary for 5-and-6-year-olds to distinguish between fact and fiction. If they can voluntarily give up their belief in Santa Claus a few years later, it doesn't seem to be much of a problem.
Separating fact from fantasy is important even for 5 and 6 year olds. Some false beliefs are not as harmless as Santa Claus.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

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Diomedes
Member
Posts: 995
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


(1)
Message 7 of 63 (733884)
07-22-2014 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by NoNukes
07-22-2014 1:54 PM


Separating fact from fantasy is important even for 5 and 6 year olds. Some false beliefs are not as harmless as Santa Claus.
I guess the issue is how far fictitious beliefs go. If they are carried into adulthood, that leads to problems.
For things like Santa Claus, generally speaking, parents will have that 'talk' about Santa when the kids are at a certain age. I can't be certain one way or another if religious beliefs at a young age will automatically cloud an adults judgement. Clearly we have seen evidence of that, but I have also seen religious people who had lots of Bible study in childhood and yet they grow up with an ability to discern fact from fiction. I guess maybe it depends on how deeply one is 'indoctrinated'.
And it probably doesn't have to be just religious beliefs. A child's mind is like a sponge. Children of racist parents or parents who have strong opinions on the New World Order and evil governments (i.e. the tinfoil helmet crowd) probably may have their worldviews skewed in adulthood.

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 63 (733886)
07-22-2014 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Diomedes
07-22-2014 3:13 PM


Separating fact from fantasy is important even for 5 and 6 year olds. Some false beliefs are not as harmless as Santa Claus.
I guess the issue is how far fictitious beliefs go.
This really doesn't matter, but I thought I'd share since y'all sparked a memory:
I remeber being a young child who still believed in Santa Claus and my parents had set out milk and cookies the night before. I had woken up on Christmas morning and noticed that the milk was gone and there were some crubs left over from the cookies.
I asked my parents about it and they insisted that they didn't touch them, so it must have been Santa Clause that got into the goods. I was really bothered by the facts that, for one, somebody had been in our house the night before, and two, my parents knew about it and didn't care at all. The evidence was there for all of us to see and they didn't seem bothered by it in the least. That really left me kinda scared and uneasy about the whole thing.
Turns out they were just fucking with me, but yeah, that's kind of a fucked up thing to do to a kid.
Clearly we have seen evidence of that, but I have also seen religious people who had lots of Bible study in childhood and yet they grow up with an ability to discern fact from fiction. I guess maybe it depends on how deeply one is 'indoctrinated'.
I went through 12 years of Catholic education that included Bible study every year. The thing about the Catholics, though, is that they seem to be open to including new and updated information as we get it (like say theistic evolution), rather than digging their heals in on everything and indoctrinating children with all these anti-science mentalities (read: Creationism).
It'd be interesting to see the same study contrasting Catholic and Evangelical children. I bet that the Catholic children would do better than the Evangelical ones.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Diomedes, posted 07-22-2014 3:13 PM Diomedes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Tangle, posted 07-22-2014 5:04 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 9 of 63 (733891)
07-22-2014 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by New Cat's Eye
07-22-2014 3:41 PM


CS writes:
The thing about the Catholics, though, is that they seem to be open to including new and updated information as we get it (like say theistic evolution), rather than digging their heals in on everything and indoctrinating children with all these anti-science mentalities (read: Creationism).
No Catholics are much worse, they're pragmatists.
They eventually change their rules to prevent themselves going out of business.
Losing converts to Islam in Africa because dead babies don't go to heaven? No problem, do away with Limbo.
All Catholics in modern developed countries use contraception which is a mortal sin. No problem, it's a matter of conscience.
The earth not the centre of the universe? Well ok, it's time to stop torturing people.
Priests must be celibate. We have a bunch of married Anglicans wanting to leave because of gay marriage. No problem they can be married Catholic priests.
2% of priests are paedophiles. No problem, we'll have our own rules and pretend we're above the law.
Massive recruitment problem because of child abuse. No problem let's look into allowing priests to marry.
Anything to survive eh?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-22-2014 3:41 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-23-2014 12:24 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 54 by Jon, posted 07-24-2014 7:21 PM Tangle has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 10 of 63 (733896)
07-22-2014 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Diomedes
07-22-2014 9:46 AM


next let's study long term effects ...
quote:
The study found that, of the 66 participants, children who went to church or were enrolled in a parochial school were significantly less able than secular children to identify supernatural elements, such as talking animals, as fictional.
It would be interesting to see how this holds up in longer term studies or in testing of people in:
(1) middle school
(2) high school
(3) college
(4) adulthood
(5) US congress ...
I think the later would prove very interesting ...
Enjoy

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by our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


(1)
Message 11 of 63 (733908)
07-22-2014 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by RAZD
07-22-2014 6:24 PM


Re: next let's study long term effects ...
Oh Hell! Don't do#5! That would be too depressing for a trainload of Prozac!
Edited by Coragyps, : No reason given.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 12 of 63 (733962)
07-23-2014 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by NoNukes
07-22-2014 1:54 PM


NoNukes writes:
Some false beliefs are not as harmless as Santa Claus.
That's what parents are for.
Children need to learn at their own pace to distinguish fact from fiction and parents need to protect them from the dangerous fictions.
Everybody should also retain an appreciation for fiction. What appalls me most about doctrinaire religionists is not that they can't recognize a talking snake as fiction but that they equate fiction with "lies".
If you appreciate fiction, there's a much finer line betwen "fact and fiction" and you have to work harder at understanding. That's something that children shouldn't be pushed into too quickly.

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 63 (733965)
07-23-2014 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Tangle
07-22-2014 5:04 PM


No Catholics are much worse, they're pragmatists.
They eventually change their rules to prevent themselves going out of business.
Losing converts to Islam in Africa because dead babies don't go to heaven? No problem, do away with Limbo.
All Catholics in modern developed countries use contraception which is a mortal sin. No problem, it's a matter of conscience.
The earth not the centre of the universe? Well ok, it's time to stop torturing people.
Priests must be celibate. We have a bunch of married Anglicans wanting to leave because of gay marriage. No problem they can be married Catholic priests.
2% of priests are paedophiles. No problem, we'll have our own rules and pretend we're above the law.
Massive recruitment problem because of child abuse. No problem let's look into allowing priests to marry.
How does all that result in Catholic children being less able to distinguish fact from fiction than Evangelical ones?
Or was that just some good old fashioned knee-jerk hatin' on the Catholics?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Tangle, posted 07-22-2014 5:04 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Tangle, posted 07-23-2014 1:20 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 14 of 63 (733972)
07-23-2014 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by New Cat's Eye
07-23-2014 12:24 PM


CS writes:
How does all that result in Catholic children being less able to distinguish fact from fiction than Evangelical ones?
You introduced the "Catholics are better than Creationists" argument, not me.
Or was that just some good old fashioned knee-jerk hatin' on the Catholics?
Or was this just a silly thing to say?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-23-2014 12:24 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-23-2014 1:46 PM Tangle has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 63 (733974)
07-23-2014 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Tangle
07-23-2014 1:20 PM


You introduced the "Catholics are better than Creationists" argument, not me.
Better at not indoctrinating children so that they cannot distinguish between fact and fiction:
quote:
Clearly we have seen evidence of that, but I have also seen religious people who had lots of Bible study in childhood and yet they grow up with an ability to discern fact from fiction. I guess maybe it depends on how deeply one is 'indoctrinated'.
I went through 12 years of Catholic education that included Bible study every year. The thing about the Catholics, though, is that they seem to be open to including new and updated information as we get it (like say theistic evolution), rather than digging their heals in on everything and indoctrinating children with all these anti-science mentalities (read: Creationism).
It'd be interesting to see the same study contrasting Catholic and Evangelical children. I bet that the Catholic children would do better than the Evangelical ones.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Tangle, posted 07-23-2014 1:20 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Tangle, posted 07-23-2014 2:54 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
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