|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Debunking Annihilationism | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Keep in mind that God never directly created an evil satan. The competitors chose to become such. Perhaps God uses them to test and strengthen us---should we be so inclined. Why would God even have "competitors"? Why wouldn't He annihilate them instead of locking them up and then throwing us in with them? Simply getting rid of all challenges makes for a spoiled and weak offspring. Also keep in mind that God never throws us in with them.. We choose to go. Or not. When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
God created everything.
Keep in mind that God never directly created an evil satan. Phat writes:
If Satan was created to challenge us and challenges are a good thing, how is Satan evil?
Simply getting rid of all challenges makes for a spoiled and weak offspring.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Phat writes:
Keep in mind that God never directly created an evil satan.zombie writes: Yes yes, we know. And if God is perfect, why allow for the possibility of a rebellious,prideful spirit that opposes Him? Good question. Why do you think?
God created everything.Phat writes:
Simply getting rid of all challenges makes for a spoiled and weak offspring.zombie writes: Another good philosophical question. If the Nazi German Army was meant as a challenge to the U.S. and British forces in WW2, who can determine whether or not they were evil or whether they were simply an alternative ideology...in other words, Who says what is good and what is evil...right, zombie? If Satan was created to challenge us and challenges are a good thing, how is Satan evil? I am of the belief that God is good. Not complete, as jar suggests. To suggest that God is complete is to lump the good with the bad, blame it all on God, and assume personal responsibility for choosing wisely. (Knowledge of good and evil theory...which, by the way, makes more sense than the Fall/Original Sin/Redemption paradigm) Perhaps the answer is to ascribe the onus on us instead of on God. This can become problematic, however, if we get rebels such as you who want to be left alone to make their decisions and see no need of a communion/reconciliation. Then again, you may be right. Who knows? When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
The obvious answer is that God isn't perfect - if He exists at all.
And if God is perfect, why allow for the possibility of a rebellious,prideful spirit that opposes Him? Good question. Why do you think? Phat writes:
Then you're a polytheist. God is your chief god and Satan is another god.
I am of the belief that God is good. Not complete, as jar suggests.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The obvious answer is that God isn't perfect - if He exists at all. That might also be an answer that satan would have given at his trial...if his defense attorney advised him to speak at all.
God is your chief god and Satan is another god.
God is the Creator of all seen and unseen. Satan is a fallen angel...a created thing. (though I believe he was created to have free will and chose to become satan..an option provided by the Creator. Reasons yet not fully known. And I am a thinking human. Privy to dogma as well as logic, reason, and reality. The obvious answer is anything but obvious. When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I would have advised him to ask for a change of venue.
That might also be an answer that satan would have given at his trial...if his defense attorney advised him to speak at all. Phat writes:
Some people reject the obvious answer because it isn't the answer they want.
The obvious answer is anything but obvious.Q: How can I stop gambling?
Obvious A: Stop gambling.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I would have advised him to ask for a change of venue. Under what jurisdiction would it be held?
Some people reject the obvious answer because it isn't the answer they want. Cant argue with you there. When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's the problem. There was nobody else. It was more of a case of bullying than a trial.
ringo writes:
Under what jurisdiction would it be held? I would have advised him to ask for a change of venue.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Let me go out on a limb, here. It almost sounds like you believe that satan had the right to rebel and be his own character and spirit.
This whole idea of independence from God, however is a big lie. We won't be happier nor healthier...trust me. And its not like being forever children and living at home. When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
Good question. Why do you think? Because God does not really care about what individual humans have to go through?The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer. -Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53 The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286 Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
"zombie" ringo?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Because God does not really care about what individual humans have to go through? God allows bad things to happen. But there is a big difference between allowing them and causing them. As to whether or not God cares---I believe that He does. One could argue that this is my bias and my need. I would argue,however, that as one of our lessons in this life we will all one day learn that we need God. Not for our own wills ultimately...but in accordance with His will. It is a lesson that He won't force upon us. Often, however, it may be a hard lesson for some of us.When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
It almost sounds like you believe that satan had the right to rebel and be his own character and spirit.quote:What good is "free will" if using it is called "rebellion"? Phat writes:
No offense but why would I trust you on that?
We won't be happier nor healthier...trust me. Phat writes:
Is too, neener neener. And its not like being forever children and living at home. (Pretty short on argument there.)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Raphael Member (Idle past 489 days) Posts: 173 From: Southern California, United States Joined:
|
CreationPigeon writes: I've heard arguments from several Christians that Hell is not mentioned as an actual place of torment in the Bible, and that it is merely symbolic of the grave. Whoever believes this has clearly not read the Bible. I'm so glad this topic has been brought up! I've been wanting to create a thread positing a cogent biblical argument for the truth about hell for a long time! Unfortunately time for creating in depth arguments is limited, but I'll throw a few things down here. From your OP, it is pretty apparent that your problem is actually with a strawman; that hell is "merely symbolic of the grave." I am probably as close to an annihilationist as you're going to find on here, and I don't believe hell is symbolic of the grave. I believe hell does not exist. By choosing to believe that hell is a fiery place of eternal torment you would actually be siding with the unbiblical, and decidedly hellenistic (greek) concept of hades.
In Luke 16, a greedy rich man is sent to Hell, and the chapter explicitly describes it as a place of eternal torment. No amount of symbolism arguments can disprove this. Except that this story is a parable designed by Jesus to make a specific point . Let's take a look at it for some context:
quote: This is the section within which we are dealing with. If you are actually reading the chapter, you'll realize that Jesus is leading up to a specific theme. He begins in verses 1-9, telling a parable about being faithful with what God has given. He basically is trying to communicate to the Pharisees (who are listening, we discover this in verse 14), that they have not been faithful with what God originally gave them, blessings, and encouraging listeners to choose between serving God and money (verse 13). The entire point of this parable is the ending verses: 29-31
quote: This pericope is the entire point of the parable. Its frustrating that we totally miss the point of what Jesus is trying to say here so often, just like the Jews listening did. We read so much into the text that it's borderline ludicrous, and the "traditional" line of thought on the matter leaves us blindly accepting lazy exegesis. What Jesus is trying to say is simple: Jesus was "prophesying" that the Jewish leaders were so stuck in their self righteousness that nothing he did would ever convince them of who He truly was. And if they didn't even listen to the prophets, not even the resurrection itself would do anything. Jesus did this often, making prophecies about himself which were later confirmed, as was this one. The "Lazarus in Abraham's bosom/side" story is merely the contextualization Jesus is using to make a point. In case you're not convinced, the imagery used in the parable is pretty ludacris and altogether would be obvious to the listeners of the time of its allegorical nature. "send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue" - there is absolutely no biblical support for the interaction between those in "hell" and those in "heaven." Regardless, Jews did not believe in a "hades-like" afterlife; the Jewish concept of the afterlife was called "sheol," a shadowy state of sleep within the earth and did not include the very greek "heaven and hell" concept. But Jesus says "hades" because of the very greek cultural influences present during the time, its something listeners would understand. In conclusion, the parable presented is only a tiny example of Jesus using the cultural norm (hades) in order to communicate to listeners a self-fulfilling prophecy about His purpose. All throughout the gospels Jesus does this, especially with parables, using the context he is within to make a point. The idea of an immortal soul that lives on beyond death is totally greek in nature and does not really exist in scripture. On the contrary, the bible, and Jesus, speak much more about the destructible nature of the soul rather than immortality. Just one example:
quote: The idea of a soul that lives on and cannot be destroyed, even by God, and somehow needs to be tortured and burned for all of eternity because of mistakes made during an incredibly small amount of "time" (within the grand scheme of eternity) makes God out to be a horrible genocidal monster in my opinion, and is one of the biggest lies within christianity, creating the biggest reason people couldn't care less about Christianity. If Christians actually preached the message of reconciliation (2 Corinthians 5:11-21) that God does not count the world's sins against them, things would be different. So I encourage you guys, do the digging yourself, actually investigate scripture. You'll be surprised to find that the kind of hell you're talking about isnt actually a thing. "God is love" is a true thing for a reason. Hopefully this all makes sense! Wish I could do a more in-depth post about it! - Raph Edited by Raphael, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Jesus would not tell a parable that wasn't meant to speak truth to everyone who would ever read the Bible, and there is nothing in the Bible that teaches a mere cultural conceit to people of the time. That's absurd and blasphemous and deceitful. Jesus is always talking to Jews for one thing ("Abraham's bosom" wouldn't mean anything to the Greeks.). Yours is the faulty exegesis and I guess you don't mind deceiving people by your mere personal opinion.
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: Hebrews 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024