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Author Topic:   Neither a theist nor an atheist
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 31 of 118 (732562)
07-08-2014 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by granpa
07-08-2014 1:33 PM


It really is as they say: "you see what you want to see". And if you truly want to see what the facts say when they are allowed to speak for themselves then you will indeed see that too.
This is kind of odd coming from a creationist.
Creationists are very adept at seeing what they want to see in spite of the facts.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 118 (732593)
07-08-2014 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by ringo
07-08-2014 11:40 AM


My point is that neither Faith nor marc9000 nor Phat actually knows what they profess to believe.
And my point is that their belief alone, whether well supported or unfounded, is enough to disqualify them as agnostic.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

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Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by hooah212002, posted 07-08-2014 10:20 PM NoNukes has replied
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 118 (732594)
07-08-2014 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by granpa
07-08-2014 1:33 PM


uh.
Edited by NoNukes, : Want to stay out of this...

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 823 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 34 of 118 (732595)
07-08-2014 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by NoNukes
07-08-2014 9:42 PM


This should help you:
*Gnosticism has nothing to do with belief, so it is wrong to say "their belief alone" even has anything to do with their agnosticism. It's usually best to stick with common vernacular and usage and since the religious don't like the word agnostic (they associate it with atheism still), that leaves atheists/secular minded folk as the main users of the word and this chart is generally the most common usage of agnosticism.
Take note that one cannot simply be agnostic or gnostic since you have to have something to be agnostic about.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18299
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 35 of 118 (732597)
07-08-2014 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by ringo
07-08-2014 11:40 AM


Gnostic Theists Dont Exist?
ringo writes:
My point is that neither Faith nor marc9000 nor Phat actually knows what they profess to believe.
Would you go so far as to say that there are no gnostic theists? If they plausibly exist, how does their belief differ from mine?

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 36 of 118 (732598)
07-08-2014 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by granpa
07-08-2014 1:33 PM


At this point someone usually interjects "But all information comes to us through our senses therefore all information is empirical". That may be true, but the way we process that information isn't always empirical. Intuition can give true and justified results ...
Or not. And unless and until you check it out against the evidence, how can you know which?
Intuition can't tell you whether a given idea is true or not, but if used properly, it does tell you whether that idea is reasonable or not.
Which would be great if the world conformed to our ideas of what is "reasonable". If science has taught us one thing, it's that it doesn't. To use your "intuition" to decide what's "reasonable" and then not put it to the test of experience is the quickest and surest way to close your mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by granpa, posted 07-08-2014 1:33 PM granpa has replied

Replies to this message:
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granpa
Member (Idle past 2363 days)
Posts: 128
Joined: 10-26-2010


Message 37 of 118 (732599)
07-08-2014 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Dr Adequate
07-08-2014 11:32 PM


something is either reasonable or it is not. Our "ideas" have nothing to do with it
Edited by granpa, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-08-2014 11:32 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 38 of 118 (732600)
07-08-2014 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by granpa
07-08-2014 11:41 PM


something is either reasonable or it is not.
What do you want "reasonable" to mean?
Our "ideas" have nothing to do with it
Even if we grant the proposition that "something is either reasonable or it is not", we do have different ideas of what is reasonable. And it is with ideas that intuition supplies us.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by granpa, posted 07-08-2014 11:41 PM granpa has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by granpa, posted 07-08-2014 11:46 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
granpa
Member (Idle past 2363 days)
Posts: 128
Joined: 10-26-2010


Message 39 of 118 (732601)
07-08-2014 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Dr Adequate
07-08-2014 11:44 PM


something is reasonable if there is a reason why it could happen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-08-2014 11:44 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 40 of 118 (732602)
07-08-2014 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by granpa
07-08-2014 11:46 PM


something is reasonable if there is a reason why it could happen
So the statement "Dr A is wearing a green hat", for example, would be reasonable, because there is a reason why it could happen, but false because I am not actually wearing a green hat?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by granpa, posted 07-08-2014 11:46 PM granpa has replied

Replies to this message:
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granpa
Member (Idle past 2363 days)
Posts: 128
Joined: 10-26-2010


Message 41 of 118 (732604)
07-08-2014 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Dr Adequate
07-08-2014 11:49 PM


as I clearly stated earlier intuition can not tell you whether something is true or not. It can only tell you whether it is a reasonable possibility or not
once you see what he is wearing then you know beyond a reasonable doubt whether its true or not
Edited by granpa, : No reason given.
Edited by granpa, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-08-2014 11:49 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-09-2014 12:04 AM granpa has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 42 of 118 (732605)
07-09-2014 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by granpa
07-08-2014 11:52 PM


as I clearly stated earlier intuition can not tell you whether something is true or not. It can only tell you whether it is a reasonable possibility or not
I'm not sure how broad you intend this criterion to be. After all, there is a sense in which I might find a doorway to a magic world in the back of my wardrobe: it is a logical possibility.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by granpa, posted 07-08-2014 11:52 PM granpa has replied

Replies to this message:
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granpa
Member (Idle past 2363 days)
Posts: 128
Joined: 10-26-2010


Message 43 of 118 (732606)
07-09-2014 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Dr Adequate
07-09-2014 12:04 AM


other universes are a reasonable possibility but magic is certainly not

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-09-2014 12:04 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-09-2014 12:12 AM granpa has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 44 of 118 (732607)
07-09-2014 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by granpa
07-09-2014 12:08 AM


Why not? After all, magic is just something that would be against the laws of our universe. They might be just as astonished by electricity as we are by their magic lamps and flying carpets.
Anyway, this aside, it's still hard to see just what you mean by "reasonable".
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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granpa
Member (Idle past 2363 days)
Posts: 128
Joined: 10-26-2010


Message 45 of 118 (732608)
07-09-2014 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Dr Adequate
07-09-2014 12:12 AM


the possibility that other universes might have different laws from our own is a reasonable possibility. But they must follow some sort of laws of cause and effect and that means it isn't magic
Edited by granpa, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-09-2014 12:12 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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