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Author Topic:   Some water measurements for the Flood
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 121 of 276 (729977)
06-22-2014 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by hooah212002
06-22-2014 2:00 PM


Re: why not miracle
You think I have a problem with the scientific method but that's because of a prejudice of your own against the Bible, not because I actually have such a problem. If we weren't talking about events described in the Bible but only about testable occurrences in the present there'd be no problem with the scientific method.
Now we are kinda getting somewhere. the geologic column DOES show that the planet was different in the past. However, you seem to be the only person in existence to claim it was different the way you claim.
But that's not true. I share my basic view of the Geo Column with lots of creationists though we may differ on certain points with respect to it.
Now you want to know why I put the Bible above what my teachers told me about the Geo Column and the answer is that I discovered that the Bible is a more trustworthy source being the word of God and all. It's really very simple and logical. The only problem is that you can't accept that it's a more trustworthy source being the word of God and all. But once you do then it becomes your source of information and the basis for rejecting other explanations of the same phenomena. It's really very elementary Hooah, you are struggling to pin me down to a contradiction that exists only in your mind. You call my acceptance of the Biblical report "faith" and pit it against the methods of science when in my mind it is simply another source of data. You want me to follow scientific method toward a conclusion that denies the trustworthiness of the Bible, because you don't believe in the trustworthiness of the Bible, but once one has accepted that it is trustworthy above anything that contradicts it there is simply no going in any direction that contradicts it. This isn't a failure to grasp the scientific method, it's the acceptance of a truth that in this case science keeps missing. Really, it's very simple and logical.
Yes I do think the conclusions that follow on the Bible are obvious and I get very impatient with those who keep insisting on making this false dichotomy between faith and science. That's a character failure of mine, I need to learn patience.
You conclude with the usual insistence that science trumps the Bible, and all I can do is answer with my usual insistence that the Bible trumps science where there is a contradiction. This has NOTHING to do with the scientific method or my ability to understand and apply it. (Understanding the way water behaves under different conditions, finding my lost dog, looking for my lost keys etc etc etc. the idea that believing the Bible makes such ordinary sleuthing impossible is wacky, Hooah). Really, it doesn't. It's all about the clash of ingrained worldviews.
As for my reading of the Bible being unique to me, well it really isn't. I've acquired it all from years of reading various interpretations of the Bible. I have some small differences with creationists among others but all that comes from having done all that reading too. In other words there are a LOT of people I'm getting my views from despite differences here and there. It's basic Christian theology, not unique to me at all.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by hooah212002, posted 06-22-2014 2:00 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by NoNukes, posted 06-22-2014 6:46 PM Faith has replied
 Message 135 by hooah212002, posted 06-22-2014 8:17 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 122 of 276 (729978)
06-22-2014 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by ringo
06-22-2014 2:46 PM


Re: why not miracle
What resources does prayer require?
I should have said something more like "Hope of success is beyond our meager resources." It would be hard enough, and probably impossible really, to get a few hundred people praying with enough consistency and fervency to make the Mojave desert bloom, but when you are talking about praying to solve the problem of millions of people displaced by evil political machinations in the name of militant Islam, that would take millions of prayer warriors praying around the clock, a tall order. Of course, as you say, we can all pray about it anyway and hope we have some positive impact on the problem. Usually it's a great thing if we have enough united prayer to deal with a local problem in the local church.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by ringo, posted 06-22-2014 2:46 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by herebedragons, posted 06-23-2014 10:28 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 190 by ringo, posted 06-23-2014 12:03 PM Faith has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 123 of 276 (729979)
06-22-2014 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Faith
06-22-2014 6:27 PM


Re: why not miracle
You think I have a problem with the scientific method but that's because of a prejudice of your own against the Bible, not because I actually have such a problem.
You've made so many anti-science comments and called scientists stupid so many times, both here and on your blog, that we know that this statement cannot possibly be true.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 6:27 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 6:51 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 124 of 276 (729980)
06-22-2014 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by hooah212002
06-22-2014 2:18 PM


Re: why not miracle
How is his explanation different from the ones you have posted that say exactly the same thing? You yourself have said repeatedly that sinners and the like is what determines rain.
Are you now saying sin has no effect on rain? DA tried to actually give a workable explanation how sinners can cause droughts or floods. Why won't you do the same?
Dr. A was giving his usual slapstick version of what I'd said about how the human moral condition affects the physical universe. It had some bits of the truth in it but was a parody, intended to make the idea look ridiculous.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by hooah212002, posted 06-22-2014 2:18 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by hooah212002, posted 06-22-2014 8:19 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 125 of 276 (729981)
06-22-2014 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by NoNukes
06-22-2014 6:46 PM


Re: why not miracle
You've made so many anti-science comments and called scientists stupid so many times, both here and on your blog, that we know that this statement cannot possibly be true.
Nope I've never said one thing that is "anti-science," all I've ever said is that the sciences that purport to interpret the unknowable past are a crock. Otherwise science is great stuff when it deals with actual knowable testable information. I know you all refuse to understand this absolutely crucial distinction but I guess I can keep repeating it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by NoNukes, posted 06-22-2014 6:46 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by NoNukes, posted 06-22-2014 7:15 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 126 of 276 (729982)
06-22-2014 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by NoNukes
06-22-2014 11:27 AM


Re: why not miracle
I don't see any point in trying to get into the specifics with you. I take my view of these Biblical points from what I've read by creationists, it's hardly unique to me. If you have a different source of interpretation, fine, but mine is NOT unique to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by NoNukes, posted 06-22-2014 11:27 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by NoNukes, posted 06-22-2014 7:12 PM Faith has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 127 of 276 (729983)
06-22-2014 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Faith
06-22-2014 6:59 PM


Re: why not miracle
I take my view of these Biblical points from what I've read by creationists, it's hardly unique to me.
Exactly so. I don't think you are unique, just non-Biblical.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 6:59 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 7:16 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 128 of 276 (729984)
06-22-2014 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Faith
06-22-2014 6:51 PM


Re: why not miracle
Nope I've never said one thing that is "anti-science," all I've ever said is that the sciences that purport to interpret the unknowable past are a crock.
Yep. That means you have a problem with sciences and their use of the scientific method. Meanwhile, you yourself have no problem spouting off your on opinion on the same unknowables.
That's fine. It is the position I expect you to take, and it would be consistent with believing the Bible first. My point though is that your position also departs from the Bible.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 6:51 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 7:21 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 129 of 276 (729985)
06-22-2014 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by NoNukes
06-22-2014 7:12 PM


Re: why not miracle
I take my view of these Biblical points from what I've read by creationists, it's hardly unique to me.
Exactly so. I don't think you are unique, just non-Biblical.
But of COURSE. There is no such thing as a Biblical view that is different from yours.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by NoNukes, posted 06-22-2014 7:12 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by NoNukes, posted 06-22-2014 7:25 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 130 of 276 (729986)
06-22-2014 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by NoNukes
06-22-2014 7:15 PM


Re: why not miracle
The scientific method works well only with testables, it COULD work a lot better with the unknowables of the past but once it's committed to its hidebound assumptions and ridiculous interpretations of the Geological Column and the fossil record and all that, it's a hopeless case.
I have the word of God to guide me on the unknowables of the past whereas science has only the fallen human mind.
See previous post on your notion that my view is unbiblical.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by NoNukes, posted 06-22-2014 7:15 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 131 of 276 (729987)
06-22-2014 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Faith
06-22-2014 7:16 PM


Re: why not miracle
But of COURSE. There is no such thing as a Biblical view that is different from yours.
All I expect from your interpretation of the Bible is that it can be justified textually. For the purposes of this discussion, I think that's a reasonable thing to do. My personal interpretation, which is that nearly all Genesis is allegorical is something I've put aside for this discussion.
What I've noted and commented on repeatedly is that you seem utterly unable to attach your interpretations of the Bible regarding the sources of water to the text of the Bible itself, instead citing "other Creationists" as your sources. That's not something I am going to respect in a debate. Besides that, plenty of other Creationists disagree with you.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 7:16 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 7:56 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 132 of 276 (729988)
06-22-2014 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by NoNukes
06-22-2014 7:25 PM


Re: why not miracle
You seem to be inventing problems that don't exist. What on earth is wrong with the BIBLICAL sources of the water in the "fountains of the deep" and the waters above the firmament of Genesis 1:7? Those are the two sources given by MOST creationists that I'm aware of. Have you really "put away" your allegorical view of Genesis or is that what is leading you to these absurd objections?
What I've noted and commented on repeatedly is that you seem utterly unable to attach your interpretations of the Bible regarding the sources of water to the text of the Bible itself, instead citing "other Creationists" as your sources. That's not something I am going to respect in a debate. Besides that, plenty of other Creationists disagree with you.
Oh STUFF AND NONSENSE!
I refer to "other creationists" to answer this insistence here on imputing my view of the Bible to me as if I didn't share it with others. Go back and read the last few pages. I start out referring to the Bible, get this weird accusation that my Biblical view is somehow unique to me, so I then refer to other creationists and now I get this weird accusation that they are my source rather than the Bible. It doesn't mean I don't have my own view of the Bible, it means that I share it with many, it's not just my own made-up view. This ought to be obvious it seems to me but apparently anything I say can be twisted in a dozen different ways. I do get the impression that nothing I say matters to anybody, you're just all trying to find some word or other you can use to twist it into something else.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by NoNukes, posted 06-22-2014 7:25 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by NoNukes, posted 06-22-2014 9:21 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 133 of 276 (729989)
06-22-2014 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Faith
06-22-2014 6:08 PM


Re: why not miracle
My claim is that data in the Bible is as good as data in the field.
That is easy to test. We can send people to see if the Mojave is a desert, if the mountains are there, if the fossil exists and they can report back, but that is not true of what you call data in the Bible, is it? You can't seem to even get Christians to agree about what data is in the Bible.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 6:08 PM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 134 of 276 (729990)
06-22-2014 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Percy
06-22-2014 5:49 PM


Re: why not miracle
So now it's clear you meant the latter, but not why you think it would be harder to offer a non-prayer explanation for blooming outside the radius rather than inside. Is it because of all the water supply infrastructure around Las Vegas?
Well, I did specify a perfect circle centered on the Strip. If, moreover, the prayer warriors announce in advance that this is what they're going to do, which is part of my plan, then I think everyone would find this phenomenon exceptionally hard to argue with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Percy, posted 06-22-2014 5:49 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Percy, posted 06-22-2014 9:24 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 135 of 276 (729991)
06-22-2014 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Faith
06-22-2014 6:27 PM


Re: why not miracle
You think I have a problem with the scientific method but that's because of a prejudice of your own against the Bible
Why do you keep accusing me of things I have not said or done? My view of the bible is not under discussion here since I have not brought it into the discussion. I have spoken only about strictly scientific matters and thing both you and I can test.
If we weren't talking about events described in the Bible but only about testable occurrences in the present there'd be no problem with the scientific method.
I admit that I have not kept strictly on topic. But that is only because I am trying to figure out where you stop accepting science and start plugging in the bible.
I share my basic view of the Geo Column with lots of creationists though we may differ on certain points with respect to it.
Am I wrong in saying that your view requires a vapor or water canopy? Not even Kent Hovind accepts that method as valid and has since stopped using it.
I discovered that the Bible is a more trustworthy source being the word of God and all.
That is fine for faith and belief matters. But you are taking part in a science thread and you continue to rail against science. "The word of god" is such a nebulous phrase and is so vulnerable to interpretation that it is useless when trying to discuss how the world works with other people. Especially people that don't read the bible EXACTLY the same way you do.
Do you wish to make an effort to have a discussion with people or do you just want to preach? Do you wish to discuss evidence to test the veracity of your claim or do you just want to preach?
It's really very simple and logical
If that were the case, don't you think you'd have swayed a few fence sitters or even converted a few atheists in your 13 years here?
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 6:27 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 8:31 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
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