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Author Topic:   Where should there be "The right to refuse service"?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 871 of 928 (758658)
05-30-2015 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 865 by DrJones*
05-30-2015 3:39 AM


Re: Inquisition still continuing
So you want to remove people's freedom of religion and freedom of speech. Tell me how is that different from what you claim is being done to Christians.
No, their freedom of religion is not removed, just their political power to impose it on the rest of the country, and the right to hold office isn't taken away from anyone except those whose religion preaches the subjugation of everyone else, such as Islam and Roman Catholicism.
We aren't taking away their businesses, but that's what's what's being done to us,
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 865 by DrJones*, posted 05-30-2015 3:39 AM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 873 by anglagard, posted 05-30-2015 10:31 AM Faith has replied
 Message 874 by PaulK, posted 05-30-2015 11:29 AM Faith has replied
 Message 875 by ringo, posted 05-30-2015 12:04 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 876 by Tangle, posted 05-30-2015 12:32 PM Faith has replied
 Message 877 by DrJones*, posted 05-30-2015 1:30 PM Faith has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 872 of 928 (758660)
05-30-2015 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 870 by Faith
05-30-2015 8:38 AM


Re: Inquisition still continuing
No, their freedom of religion is not removed, just their political power to impose it on the rest of the country, which isn't taken away from anyone except those whose religion preaches the subjugation of everyone else, such as Islam and Roman Catholicism.
Don't forget your particular brand of religion that you are trying to impose on the rest of the country.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 870 by Faith, posted 05-30-2015 8:38 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 883 by Faith, posted 05-30-2015 9:21 PM JonF has replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 873 of 928 (758661)
05-30-2015 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 871 by Faith
05-30-2015 8:38 AM


Turing Test
Faith writes:
freedom of religion is not removed, just their political power to impose it on the rest of the country, and the right to hold office isn't taken away from anyone except those whose religion preaches the subjugation of everyone else, such as Islam and Roman Catholicism.
Imposing?
It is impossible for me to reconcile your absolute hatred of anyone different than yourself with any human ideal, be it religion, philosophy, science, or art.
Congratulations, you failed the Turing Test.
{ABE - My late wife was Roman Catholic, her family is Roman Catholic, all the people who report to me at work are Roman Catholic except my number one who is Greek Orthodox, in fact in the midst of composing this message, I had to deal with a Jehovah's Witness in the kindest way I could muster.
Faith, your hatred only serves your devil}
You did manage to piss me off, was that your goal?
Edited by anglagard, : No reason given.
Edited by anglagard, : No reason given.
Edited by anglagard, : just wanted to make sure it still worked
Edited by anglagard, : No reason given.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 871 by Faith, posted 05-30-2015 8:38 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 882 by Faith, posted 05-30-2015 9:10 PM anglagard has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 874 of 928 (758662)
05-30-2015 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 871 by Faith
05-30-2015 8:38 AM


Re: Inquisition still continuing
Banning people from political office for their faith is indeed contrary to the whole idea of freedom of religion. And that is what you have proposed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 871 by Faith, posted 05-30-2015 8:38 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 885 by Faith, posted 05-30-2015 9:30 PM PaulK has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 875 of 928 (758665)
05-30-2015 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 871 by Faith
05-30-2015 8:38 AM


Re: Inquisition still continuing
Faith writes:
... the right to hold office isn't taken away from anyone except those whose religion preaches the subjugation of everyone else, such as Islam and Roman Catholicism.
The right to hold office should be based on what a person does, not on what you think their religion preaches.
You have a right not to vote for somebody because you don't like his religion or the colour of his socks. You do NOT have the right to impose your preference on everybody else by banning him from running.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 871 by Faith, posted 05-30-2015 8:38 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 876 of 928 (758669)
05-30-2015 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 871 by Faith
05-30-2015 8:38 AM


Re: Inquisition still continuing
Faith writes:
We aren't taking away their businesses, but that's what's what's being done to us
In the judgement on the Northern Irish baker's case, the judge referred to the original writings of the drafters of the law for their reasoning. It said something like
'It must be an expectation of those offering their services to the public for profit, that they accept the public as a whole no matter how it is constructed.'
Is it really too much to ask that Christians, in modern democracies where everyone's rights are balanced against each other, that they live up to such a simple and just requirement?
If you can't find room to compromise in such trivial matters then your kind of Christian needs to find a new kind of business and excercise your right to be bigots in your churches, chapels and homes.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 871 by Faith, posted 05-30-2015 8:38 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 881 by Faith, posted 05-30-2015 9:03 PM Tangle has not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 877 of 928 (758675)
05-30-2015 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 871 by Faith
05-30-2015 8:38 AM


Re: Inquisition still continuing
No, their freedom of religion is not removed, just their political power to impose it on the rest of the country, and the right to hold office isn't taken away from anyone except those whose religion preaches the subjugation of everyone else, such as Islam and Roman Catholicism.
So under your system Muslims and RCs wouldn't pay taxes? Or would you force them to be taxed without representation in government?

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 871 by Faith, posted 05-30-2015 8:38 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 878 by NoNukes, posted 05-30-2015 5:39 PM DrJones* has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 878 of 928 (758677)
05-30-2015 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 877 by DrJones*
05-30-2015 1:30 PM


Re: Inquisition still continuing
So under your system Muslims and RCs wouldn't pay taxes? Or would you force them to be taxed without representation in government?
Seriously. Isn't it kind of pointless to cite constitutional principles at someone who hates the first amendment as much as Faith does?
If we let those guys keep extra money, they are just going to send it to ISIS, or even worse, tithe it to their church so that the Pope gets it. So yeah, tax them until they convert.[1]
[1] Sarcasm.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 877 by DrJones*, posted 05-30-2015 1:30 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 879 by PaulK, posted 05-30-2015 6:04 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 884 by DrJones*, posted 05-30-2015 9:27 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 879 of 928 (758678)
05-30-2015 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 878 by NoNukes
05-30-2015 5:39 PM


Re: Inquisition still continuing
The U.S. Constitution ruled out religious tests for office before the First Amendment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 878 by NoNukes, posted 05-30-2015 5:39 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 880 by NoNukes, posted 05-30-2015 8:58 PM PaulK has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 880 of 928 (758680)
05-30-2015 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 879 by PaulK
05-30-2015 6:04 PM


Re: Inquisition still continuing
The U.S. Constitution ruled out religious tests for office before the First Amendment.
Yes, that's true. Faith is talking about removing limiting non-Fundy's in more ways than just office holding, but your point is well taken. Faith is wiping her butt with even older portions of the constitution.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 879 by PaulK, posted 05-30-2015 6:04 PM PaulK has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 881 of 928 (758681)
05-30-2015 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 876 by Tangle
05-30-2015 12:32 PM


Re: Inquisition still continuing
Is it really too much to ask that Christians, in modern democracies where everyone's rights are balanced against each other, that they live up to such a simple and just requirement?
If you can't find room to compromise in such trivial matters then your kind of Christian needs to find a new kind of business and excercise your right to be bigots in your churches, chapels and homes.
Aaaaa no big deal, just tell God you'd rather keep your business than obey Him in such a trivial matter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 876 by Tangle, posted 05-30-2015 12:32 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 882 of 928 (758683)
05-30-2015 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 873 by anglagard
05-30-2015 10:31 AM


Re: Turing Test
It isn't the Catholics themselves, we have plenty of patriotic Catholics, it's their allegiance to the Pope that in Samuel Adams' day was still very likely to be called in, when the tyrannies in Europe were still fairly fresh in mind, and under some circumstances could today as well. I don't know about you but the fact that the Pope is scheduled to speak in OUR Congress in September, an unprecedented event, having been invited by two Catholics, Boehner and Pelosi, does not make ME feel very good. But that's probably because I agree with the Protestant Reformers that he's the Antichrist. Most Catholics haven't a clue about any of that.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 873 by anglagard, posted 05-30-2015 10:31 AM anglagard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 892 by NoNukes, posted 05-31-2015 1:03 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 883 of 928 (758684)
05-30-2015 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 872 by JonF
05-30-2015 9:43 AM


Re: Inquisition still continuing
Don't forget your particular brand of religion that you are trying to impose on the rest of the country.
See, the problem is nobody has a real sense of history any more, and I've only been learning some of it recently myself because all we get these days is propaganda. All of the original thirteen colonies had religious constitutions, one of them unfortunately Catholic, but all the rest were "my particular brand of religion," being Bible-based Protestant. That such a foundation was turned into a federal government that denies those Christian roots was an incredible betrayal and there were plenty who objected to it but we don't hear any of that any more, The country was SO Christian in its population and basic worldview that it seemed to BE Christian despite the built-in betrayal. Even the main founders, who were really not Christian, Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Paine, weren't looking to get rid of Christianity, not at all, just wanted to cut down on the interdenominational squabbles. Unfortunately they unwittingly set a precedent that allowed all the anti-Christian hatred we see at EvC to flourish as it does today.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 872 by JonF, posted 05-30-2015 9:43 AM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 886 by jar, posted 05-30-2015 9:32 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 901 by JonF, posted 05-31-2015 8:45 AM Faith has replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 884 of 928 (758685)
05-30-2015 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 878 by NoNukes
05-30-2015 5:39 PM


Re: Inquisition still continuing
Seriously. Isn't it kind of pointless to cite constitutional principles at someone who hates the first amendment as much as Faith does?
I'm just wondering how many of the founding tenets of your country Faith is opposed too.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 878 by NoNukes, posted 05-30-2015 5:39 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 885 of 928 (758686)
05-30-2015 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 874 by PaulK
05-30-2015 11:29 AM


Re: Inquisition still continuing
Banning people from political office for their faith is indeed contrary to the whole idea of freedom of religion. And that is what you have proposed.
It's what the original American colonies did, and since they were original, how can anyone imagine they would have seen things any differently when it came to establishing a federal government. Attempts to reconcile denominational differences failed to anticipate the ultimate destruction of the colonies' original Christian worldview.
When you appreciate how thoroughly Protestant the original colonies were in their constitutions and politics, it's really absurd to think an anti-Christian secular society could have resulted from any of their efforts except by some very strange misunderstandings that are today's revisionist interpretations.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 874 by PaulK, posted 05-30-2015 11:29 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 895 by Rrhain, posted 05-31-2015 2:20 AM Faith has replied
 Message 896 by PaulK, posted 05-31-2015 2:41 AM Faith has replied
 Message 902 by JonF, posted 05-31-2015 8:47 AM Faith has not replied

  
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