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Author Topic:   ANOTHER Political Quiz
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1482 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 61 of 102 (726364)
05-08-2014 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by ringo
05-08-2014 1:46 PM


Re: simple bills -- simplify simplify simplify
You didn't address this part:
quote:
What you could have would be a debate on the internet with facilitators trained to work towards a consilience of opinions. People could follow and then decide on the merits of the arguments.
This could operate in the fashion of the Occupy Movement General Meetings to arrive at a consensus rather than simple up\down majority vote approach.
And then there are conventions where laws could be discussed and then voted on, similar to
quote:
Article V
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.
No doubt. I'm suggesting that that would not be an improvement.
Which is an argument for clean simple bills with no frills and loopholes.
Both. And because life is complicated.
Which two of the three are both?
Sometimes life is simple, and I like to go with Thoreau: simplify simplify simplify.
Enjoy

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by ringo, posted 05-08-2014 1:46 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2600
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


(5)
Message 62 of 102 (726366)
05-08-2014 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by RAZD
05-08-2014 2:43 PM


Re: simple bills -- simplify simplify simplify
Sorry - can't resist making this flippant rejoinder...
RAZD writes:
Sometimes life is simple, and I like to go with Thoreau: simplify simplify simplify.
Then why didn't he just say "simplify"???

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4500
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 63 of 102 (726368)
05-08-2014 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by anglagard
05-07-2014 3:06 AM


Re: What do You Want?
For a start, I would like to point out that several states in the US west of the Mississippi have a referendum process whereby to some degree, at least in regard to state law, there is a form of direct democracy. It may not be as immediate as possible in the internet age (nor given temporary passions, should it be to some extent IMHO), however it is what it is, a form of direct democracy.
In Oregon we can vote on bills from initiative petitions if they get enough valid signatures and bills that are referred by the legislature. We also get laws that are passed by the legislature and signed into law by the governor. I am not sure what decides whether it goes to the people or just the legislature. The legislature seems to mostly make decisions about budget items.
In the past their we some bills passed by the people that clearly were unconstitutional and cost a bunch of wasted tax money to have repealed.
The bills are screened more closely now for obvious flaws but some still slip through. There are usually a few really stupid measures on the ballot and they usually get voted down, but not always. We have had more than our share of the discriminatory anti-gay measures, it seems to me.
We have had some that really turned out great and have stood the test of time. Our bottle bill and the public beach bill are 2 that I like. The Oregon coast is all public land. There are no private beaches.
Oregonians have have voted down sales taxes something like 9 times and also self-service gas pumping.
Occasionally we will have two opposing bills on the ballet and it creates a real mess when they both pass. At least when that happens we all get a good laugh.
It does seem to me that on some of the major issues (like health care, Social Security, the future of publicly funded science, etc.) that will affect the whole country, maybe for decades, that some form of referendum should be passed to the voters. I feel this should especially happen in cases where Congress is going against the will of the people by a large margin.
Maybe, as polarized as the whole country seems to be right now, we would end up being just as grid locked and angry if the people were voting directly as we are with the assholes in Congress.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 102 (726480)
05-09-2014 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Tanypteryx
05-08-2014 5:20 PM


Re: What do You Want?
Oregonians have have voted down ... self-service gas pumping.
What? You can't pump your own gas?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-08-2014 5:20 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-09-2014 11:22 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4500
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 65 of 102 (726495)
05-09-2014 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by New Cat's Eye
05-09-2014 10:32 AM


Re: What do You Want?
We mostly look at it as we don't have to pump our own gas. It provides quite a few jobs. Our prices don't seem to be higher than neighboring states where you have to pump your own.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-09-2014 10:32 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 68 by Omnivorous, posted 05-09-2014 12:52 PM Tanypteryx has replied
 Message 70 by xongsmith, posted 05-09-2014 1:32 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 102 (726501)
05-09-2014 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Tanypteryx
05-09-2014 11:22 AM


Re: What do You Want?
So, its illegal to pump your own gas?
I wouldn't like being unable to pump my own gas when I wanted to, and I'm against criminalizing it.
But I like to bag my own groceries too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-09-2014 11:22 AM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 489 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 67 of 102 (726505)
05-09-2014 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by RAZD
05-08-2014 2:43 PM


Re: simple bills -- simplify simplify simplify
RAZD writes:
You didn't address this part:
I have no objection to the part I didn't object to.
RAZD writes:
Sometimes life is simple, and I like to go with Thoreau: simplify simplify simplify.
Sometimes you don't need to fly; we build aircraft for the times when you do need them.
Whether Thoreau thought life "should" be simple and whether you agree with him are not particularly relevant. There are people who see complications (whether there are any or not) and there are people who like complications. The democratic system has to accomodate those people too.

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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 4.8


(3)
Message 68 of 102 (726513)
05-09-2014 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Tanypteryx
05-09-2014 11:22 AM


Re: What do You Want?
You can't pump your own gas in New Jersey: a common bumper sticker says, "Jersey Girls Don't Pump Gas".
I haven't found any other limits.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-09-2014 11:22 AM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4500
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 69 of 102 (726518)
05-09-2014 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Omnivorous
05-09-2014 12:52 PM


Re: What do You Want?
As I remember, I have voted several times on this and every time I imagined my elderly mother having to pump her own gas in the winter in Bend, Oregon.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Omnivorous, posted 05-09-2014 12:52 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2600
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 70 of 102 (726519)
05-09-2014 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Tanypteryx
05-09-2014 11:22 AM


Re: What do You Want?
Tanypteryx writes
It provides quite a few jobs.
Just wondering what a lengthly exposure to gas fumes means for the job worker over a lifetime - do they have the equivalent of Black Lung Insurance?
It is very good that they got the lead out, however.
Yay.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-09-2014 11:22 AM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4500
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 71 of 102 (726531)
05-09-2014 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by xongsmith
05-09-2014 1:32 PM


Re: What do You Want?
Just wondering what a lengthly exposure to gas fumes means for the job worker over a lifetime - do they have the equivalent of Black Lung Insurance?
I don't know about that. The pump nozzles have a rubber gizmo the seals against the gas tank filler hole that helps limit the fumes.
It used to be that it was mostly high school kids working part time pumping gas, but the guys at my favorite gas station started working there in high school and are still there 30 years later.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by xongsmith, posted 05-09-2014 1:32 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 102 (726548)
05-09-2014 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Dogmafood
05-05-2014 8:45 PM


Re: Let the Internet rule!
Do you think that the country is ready to overturn the 14th amendment?
Parts of it, yes.
But even as it stands, the 14th Amendment is not interpreted literally right now. If it were interpreted literally, there would be no point to either the ERA and the issue of gay rights would have been settled long ago.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 102 (726550)
05-09-2014 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Tanypteryx
05-08-2014 5:20 PM


Re: What do You Want?
Maybe, as polarized as the whole country seems to be right now, we would end up being just as grid locked and angry if the people were voting directly as we are with the assholes in Congress.
Maybe not grid locked. It seems to me that the public is going to make some call if there is a referendum.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-08-2014 5:20 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1482 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 74 of 102 (726828)
05-13-2014 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by NoNukes
05-09-2014 7:32 PM


Mix and Match
Perhaps the best option is a mixture of representation and direct democracy.
Representatives do the brunt of day to day business
Reps are subject to recall votes as a direct check\balance on their voting
Pay for reps decided by direct votes
BTW -- why are reps in US congress paid by the Federal Gov't: shouldn't they be paid by the states they represent?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by NoNukes, posted 05-09-2014 7:32 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Omnivorous, posted 05-13-2014 11:44 AM RAZD has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 75 of 102 (726840)
05-13-2014 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by RAZD
05-13-2014 10:31 AM


Re: Mix and Match
RAZD writes:
BTW -- why are reps in US congress paid by the Federal Gov't: shouldn't they be paid by the states they represent?
Maybe they shouldn't be paid at all. They're almost all millionaires--if not when they take office, shortly after.
They mostly buy the office, anyway, then make a profit. We the People should get a cut.
I find direct democracy a terrifying notion. At least our representative democracy often slows things down enough for the fever of the day to pass.
My view mirrors Poul Anderson's Dominic Flandry, "Agent of the Terran Empire": Bureaucracies are often chiefly useful for their inertia. Efficiency can be dangerous.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by RAZD, posted 05-13-2014 10:31 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by RAZD, posted 05-13-2014 12:04 PM Omnivorous has replied
 Message 78 by ringo, posted 05-13-2014 12:30 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
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