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Author Topic:   ANOTHER Political Quiz
ringo
Member (Idle past 489 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 31 of 102 (725909)
05-03-2014 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Dogmafood
05-03-2014 3:37 PM


Re: Let the Internet rule!
ProtoTypical writes:
It likely needs to be generational change that starts in kindergarten. Start by teaching children how to make decisions and what the consequences are.
Politics is the art of arguing about what the consequences are. Who's going to decide what to teach the kids?
ProtoTypical writes:
ringo writes:
We need people who can wrangle out the tiny details.
We can have those people. They just wouldn't be in charge.
So how are we going to vote on the budget? A yes or no for each of three hundred and eighty-seven clauses? The ballot would be twice the size of the budget.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Dogmafood, posted 05-03-2014 3:37 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Dogmafood, posted 05-04-2014 11:54 AM ringo has replied

  
faceman
Member (Idle past 3463 days)
Posts: 149
From: MN, USA
Joined: 04-25-2014


Message 32 of 102 (725910)
05-03-2014 9:26 PM


Looks like I'm the oddball:
Republicans 98%
Libertarians 72%
Green Party 5%
Democrats 2%
Socialist 1%

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 914 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 33 of 102 (725912)
05-03-2014 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by AZPaul3
05-02-2014 7:29 PM


Direct Democracy vs. Human Rights
I could not agree more with this post.
Those who are acquainted with history are well aware of various expressions of popular rule that have happened over time.
Lynch mobs in the US as late as the 1950s, Pogroms against Jews in Europe in revenge for the purported blood libel that culminated in the Holocaust. The murder of "witches" still occurring in some parts of Africa to this day.
Those are only the most egregious, I could go on for pages.
The system we have now in the US royally sucks because it is incredibly corrupt, but if one is familiar with history, they will know it has always been that way. It is a constant struggle to maintain the slightest semblance of democracy in this nation. As for others, in almost all cases, it appears there is quite a mixed record as well.
Now to quote the obvious that I am sure most here have heard before:
"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."
-Winston Churchill
If anybody has a better way to rule over the people, please feel free to let us know. Don't even say direct democracy - been there, done that.
.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 102 (725914)
05-03-2014 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Dogmafood
05-02-2014 5:30 PM


Re: Let the Internet rule!
That's what the people want and in a democracy the people should get what they want. Of course they have to live with the consequences so when they start teaching Islam in the public schools in Dearborn Mi. that comes with the deal.
What happens when the majority passes laws depriving the minority of the right to participate in the political process? Or agree to strip unpopular groups of some of their rights. They majority will never have to face any consequences for having done so.
Simple majority rules for whose neighborhood gets to be the site for the next land fill?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Dogmafood, posted 05-02-2014 5:30 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Dogmafood, posted 05-04-2014 11:49 AM NoNukes has replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 914 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


(2)
Message 35 of 102 (725915)
05-03-2014 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by frako
05-01-2014 8:36 AM


Results
On a lighter note, here are my test results - for whatever it's worth:
Dem. - 91
Gre. - 91
Soc. - 57
Lib. - 46
Rep. - 27
As a firm believer in freedom, liberty, equality, and social justice my only comment is this:
First Fox News came after me for calling myself a liberal and I did nothing, then they came after me for calling myself a libertarian and I did nothing, the they came after me for calling myself an intellectual and I did nothing, then they came after me for calling myself a human being and ...............

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by frako, posted 05-01-2014 8:36 AM frako has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Dogmafood, posted 05-04-2014 11:47 AM anglagard has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 426 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 36 of 102 (725923)
05-04-2014 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by anglagard
05-03-2014 11:18 PM


Re: Direct Democracy vs. Human Rights
If anybody has a better way to rule over the people, please feel free to let us know. Don't even say direct democracy - been there, done that.
I think that you are confusing examples of chaotic mob rule with the idea of direct democracy and that it has never been attempted on any grand scale. I would submit that every move toward a more inclusive democracy leads to improvements in the standard of living and to more just societies.
The murder of "witches" still occurring in some parts of Africa to this day.
Of course the system has to open with good access to good information and devoid of corruption. Do you really think that we will start burning witches again?
There is no need to abandon the rule of law and I don't see why you guys think that that would be the inevitable result. Take prop 8 in Ca. for example. The established protection of constitutional rights kicked in and the rights of the minority were protected against the will of the majority. (I am not sure what the mechanism was or what the actual numbers were.)
Take another example of a plebiscite held in Kitimat BC regarding the construction of a pipeline through the community. Why shouldn't these folks have some right to prevent the construction of a pipeline through their community against the wishes of some rich dudes in Calgary and Toronto? Why should the PM be able to override the wishes of the people in favour of the wishes of some group of elite and powerful?
You don't abandon the rule of law. You don't throw out all of the advances that we have made and all of the lessons that we have learned. I don't see why you think that would happen. Again if democracy is a good idea then why isn't more democracy a better idea?
Direct democracy is not the same thing as mob rule.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by anglagard, posted 05-03-2014 11:18 PM anglagard has not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 426 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 37 of 102 (725924)
05-04-2014 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by anglagard
05-03-2014 11:38 PM


Re: Results
As a firm believer in freedom, liberty, equality, and social justice my only comment is this:
Except that you don't really believe in freedom and equality. You believe that the people need to be told what to do by the elite wielders of power.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by anglagard, posted 05-03-2014 11:38 PM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by anglagard, posted 05-04-2014 11:53 PM Dogmafood has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 426 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 38 of 102 (725925)
05-04-2014 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by NoNukes
05-03-2014 11:28 PM


Re: Let the Internet rule!
Simple majority rules for whose neighborhood gets to be the site for the next land fill?
The way that it is now is that a minority decides where the next land fill is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by NoNukes, posted 05-03-2014 11:28 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by NoNukes, posted 05-05-2014 8:29 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 426 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 39 of 102 (725926)
05-04-2014 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by ringo
05-03-2014 4:33 PM


Re: Let the Internet rule!
So how are we going to vote on the budget? A yes or no for each of three hundred and eighty-seven clauses? The ballot would be twice the size of the budget.
Don't you think that if we can figure out how to go to Mars that we can figure out how to vote on the budget? The first requirement is to decide that we want to do it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by ringo, posted 05-03-2014 4:33 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by nwr, posted 05-04-2014 12:17 PM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied
 Message 41 by ringo, posted 05-04-2014 2:42 PM Dogmafood has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6418
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.5


(3)
Message 40 of 102 (725927)
05-04-2014 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Dogmafood
05-04-2014 11:54 AM


Re: Let the Internet rule!
Don't you think that if we can figure out how to go to Mars that we can figure out how to vote on the budget?
Going to Mars is far easier.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Dogmafood, posted 05-04-2014 11:54 AM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 489 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 41 of 102 (725929)
05-04-2014 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Dogmafood
05-04-2014 11:54 AM


Re: Let the Internet rule!
ProtoTypical writes:
Don't you think that if we can figure out how to go to Mars that we can figure out how to vote on the budget?
You're equivocating relatively simple technical problems with philosophical questions that have no pat answers.
We don't grow our own food or fix our own cars. We even hire advisors to handle our individual finances. Doesn't it make sense to hire specialists to handle our collective budget too?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Dogmafood, posted 05-04-2014 11:54 AM Dogmafood has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 383 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(1)
Message 42 of 102 (725931)
05-04-2014 3:04 PM


Well we all know this will happen if the other party wins so get to the voting booths.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

  
Leroy Jenkins
Member (Idle past 3566 days)
Posts: 4
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 05-02-2014


(1)
Message 43 of 102 (725946)
05-04-2014 6:19 PM


So I'm new here, and I thought this would be a good first post/comment/thing. I took the test, and my results were
Green: 96%
Dem: 93%
Socialist: 73%
Libertarian: 43%
Rep: 1%
On a side note, I don't know if the test I'm going to recommend has ever been shown here before, but I prefer it. It's a political compass test, with two axes (social and economic), and I feel like a universal numerical value is more accurate (I shudder at saying these tests are accurate) than a percentage relative to the correspondence of your views to those of the parties in a bought-out government. So here are my results for that test, I added a few points of leaders that had already been plotted on the site:
http://www.politicalcompass.org/crowdchart.php?showform=&...
In this case, Libertarian isn't the American Libertarian Party, it's Liberal, and Neo-Liberal is just capitalist. The link for the site is: The Political Compass
As well, I mean no offense to the site that was originally shown here, I just wanted to add another version of a test like that.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Reset signature font size to smaller.

"As with the Christian religion, the worst advertisement for Socialism is its adherents."
-George Orwell
"In my opinion, nothing has contributed so much to the corruption of the original idea of socialism as the belief that Russia is a socialist country and that every act of its rulers must be excused, if not imitated."
-Also George Orwell
"You don't need a formal conspiracy; when interests converge, these people went to the same universities, [...] they're on the same boards of directors, they're in the same country clubs, they have like interests. They don't need to call a meeting, they know what's good for them, and they're getting it."
-George Carlin

Replies to this message:
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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3946
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 44 of 102 (725947)
05-04-2014 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Leroy Jenkins
05-04-2014 6:19 PM


The topic, and other maybe related
On a side note, I don't know if the test I'm going to recommend has ever been shown here before, but I prefer it.
Politcal Compass (Their spelling, I have spell check).
Also maybe of interest:
Political Dimensions
Political Identity Crisis
Moose

Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith
"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien
"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Leroy Jenkins, posted 05-04-2014 6:19 PM Leroy Jenkins has not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 914 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


(2)
Message 45 of 102 (725955)
05-04-2014 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Dogmafood
05-04-2014 11:47 AM


What do You Want?
ProtoTypical writes:
Except that you don't really believe in freedom and equality. You believe that the people need to be told what to do by the elite wielders of power.
Before we get into some game of trading insults, I want you to know that as a Anarcho-Syndicalist Libertarian (for as long as Fox News and others allow us to define the term), I actually have some sympathy toward your ideals, it is just coupled with a lot of skepticism.
Perhaps one of us could start a new thread detailing exactly to what extent direct democracy could be implemented.
Such a thread could be used to explain:
Who is allowed to vote?
What level of detail would such voting comprise?
Would this replace all functions, executive, legislative, and judicial -- or would the judgement of guilt or innocence be exempt from the popular will of those unfamiliar with the details of each particular case?
Which laws would be the purview of the federal, state, or county level? Would all decisions be nationwide?
Who would be empowered to write the actual wording of each referendum bought before the people at large?
Those are just a few of those "devil in the details" things I am curious about. I am eager to see your response.
Edited by anglagard, : Replaced the term me with us as I am not the only self-defined Anarcho-Syndacalist Libertarian, as Noam Chomsky still lives.
Edited by anglagard, : Had to add to definition of popular will as around these parts one is still purportedly judged by a jury of their peers.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Dogmafood, posted 05-04-2014 11:47 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Dogmafood, posted 05-05-2014 8:07 PM anglagard has replied

  
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