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Author Topic:   ANOTHER Political Quiz
ringo
Member (Idle past 528 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 6 of 102 (725756)
05-01-2014 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Theodoric
05-01-2014 11:02 AM


Green Party 98%
Democrats 91%
Socialists 80%
Libertarians 56%
Republicans 21%

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Theodoric, posted 05-01-2014 11:02 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 528 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 18 of 102 (725854)
05-02-2014 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Dogmafood
05-02-2014 10:59 AM


Re: Political Math
ProtoTypical writes:
No wonder its all screwed up...everybody has 300% worth of opinions.
I, for one, have at least three opinions on every issue.

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 528 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 27 of 102 (725901)
05-03-2014 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Dogmafood
05-02-2014 5:30 PM


Re: Let the Internet rule!
ProtyTypical writes:
Do you think the Iraq war would have happened if there was a direct vote of the people about it?
Yes.
And a month later there would have been a vote to pull out. And the first time there was a hint of a terrorist threat there would have been a vote to go back in. And the first time one of our soldiers got shot there would have been a vote to pull out again. There wouldn't have been an effective war because the soldiers would have spent all their time packing and unpacking.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Dogmafood, posted 05-02-2014 5:30 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Dogmafood, posted 05-03-2014 1:31 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 528 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 29 of 102 (725905)
05-03-2014 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Dogmafood
05-03-2014 1:31 PM


Re: Let the Internet rule!
ProtoTypical writes:
It would be cool if we could craft an experiment to see what the results would be.
We have those experiments all the time. They're called "opinion polls". Is there any reason to believe that people's opinions would be less flighty if they mattered? At best, it would take a while for people to get used to the fact that they should think before they vote.
ProtoTypical writes:
... we need 'special' people to tell us what we want....
Have you ever read legislation? We need people who can wrangle out the tiny details. That ain't us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Dogmafood, posted 05-03-2014 1:31 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Dogmafood, posted 05-03-2014 3:37 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 528 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 31 of 102 (725909)
05-03-2014 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Dogmafood
05-03-2014 3:37 PM


Re: Let the Internet rule!
ProtoTypical writes:
It likely needs to be generational change that starts in kindergarten. Start by teaching children how to make decisions and what the consequences are.
Politics is the art of arguing about what the consequences are. Who's going to decide what to teach the kids?
ProtoTypical writes:
ringo writes:
We need people who can wrangle out the tiny details.
We can have those people. They just wouldn't be in charge.
So how are we going to vote on the budget? A yes or no for each of three hundred and eighty-seven clauses? The ballot would be twice the size of the budget.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Dogmafood, posted 05-03-2014 3:37 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Dogmafood, posted 05-04-2014 11:54 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 528 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 41 of 102 (725929)
05-04-2014 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Dogmafood
05-04-2014 11:54 AM


Re: Let the Internet rule!
ProtoTypical writes:
Don't you think that if we can figure out how to go to Mars that we can figure out how to vote on the budget?
You're equivocating relatively simple technical problems with philosophical questions that have no pat answers.
We don't grow our own food or fix our own cars. We even hire advisors to handle our individual finances. Doesn't it make sense to hire specialists to handle our collective budget too?

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 528 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 49 of 102 (726078)
05-06-2014 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Dogmafood
05-05-2014 8:07 PM


Re: What do You Want?
ProtoTypical writes:
The cream will rise.
Yeah, that's another problem with direct democracy. You'll get the cream of voters, the ones who are educated enough and informed enough to understand the detailed issues. Few enough people vote when the issue is low taxes versus good services. Fewer would vote if the issue was x dollars for A and y dollars for B versus z dollars for C and w dollars for D. It's a recipe for oligarchy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Dogmafood, posted 05-05-2014 8:07 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Dogmafood, posted 05-08-2014 9:14 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 528 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 57 of 102 (726345)
05-08-2014 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Dogmafood
05-08-2014 9:14 AM


Re: What do You Want?
ProtoTypical writes:
Do you think that voters would be less interested as they become more empowered?
As I said, they would become less interested as the level of detail increased. Only those who were interested in the details would participate. Ultimately, government would be by a small group of people, only they'd be people that we wouldn't get to choose.
ProtoTypical writes:
I think that what will soon become apparent is the need for a better informed electorate and the need for an increase in the free flow of information.
We've needed that for centuries. I'm not holding my breath.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Dogmafood, posted 05-08-2014 9:14 AM Dogmafood has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by RAZD, posted 05-08-2014 1:10 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 528 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 60 of 102 (726362)
05-08-2014 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by RAZD
05-08-2014 1:10 PM


Re: simple bills -- simplify simplify simplify
RAZD writes:
We already have instances of representatives voting on bills they haven't read, so I don't really think that would stop some people from doing so.
No doubt. I'm suggesting that that would not be an improvement.
RAZD writes:
One question is why does the level of detail increase? Because it is written by lawyers, to include loop-holes for special interests or because it is necessary to describe the whole concept.
Both. And because life is complicated.
RAZD writes:
The advantage of simple bills is no loopholes and "clean" bills.
I suspect that simplifying bills in one place would only necessitate complicating them in other places.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by RAZD, posted 05-08-2014 1:10 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by RAZD, posted 05-08-2014 2:43 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 528 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 67 of 102 (726505)
05-09-2014 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by RAZD
05-08-2014 2:43 PM


Re: simple bills -- simplify simplify simplify
RAZD writes:
You didn't address this part:
I have no objection to the part I didn't object to.
RAZD writes:
Sometimes life is simple, and I like to go with Thoreau: simplify simplify simplify.
Sometimes you don't need to fly; we build aircraft for the times when you do need them.
Whether Thoreau thought life "should" be simple and whether you agree with him are not particularly relevant. There are people who see complications (whether there are any or not) and there are people who like complications. The democratic system has to accomodate those people too.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 528 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 78 of 102 (726854)
05-13-2014 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Omnivorous
05-13-2014 11:44 AM


Re: Mix and Match
Omnivorous writes:
Maybe they shouldn't be paid at all.
We sometimes have politicians reminding us that they could make more money in private industry. My response is, "Please do."
(I think politicians should get welfare. It might give them some incentive.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Omnivorous, posted 05-13-2014 11:44 AM Omnivorous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-13-2014 1:06 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 528 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 81 of 102 (726862)
05-13-2014 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Tanypteryx
05-13-2014 1:06 PM


Re: Mix and Match
Tanypteryx writes:
I have often wondered whether it would work if our representatives were chosen by lottery, like jurors.
I've considered that myself, but mostly as a science-fiction story.
Tanypteryx writes:
A single term and you are free.
There is something to be said for continuity though. When everybody is the new kid on the block, who shows them the ropes?
I like the U.S. system where 1/3 of the Senate is elected every two years. Maybe the lottery could use a staggered system like that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-13-2014 1:06 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-13-2014 1:35 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 528 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 91 of 102 (727758)
05-20-2014 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Dogmafood
05-19-2014 9:20 AM


Re: Referendum DD at End of Term/s
ProtoTypical writes:
How many here think that they themselves should not be allowed to vote?
The question isn't about being "allowed" to vote; it's about what we're allowed (or required) to vote for.
Should we be allowed to vote on the weather? I'm going to propose a referendum on having winter every second year.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Dogmafood, posted 05-19-2014 9:20 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by xongsmith, posted 05-20-2014 2:50 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 94 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-20-2014 3:40 PM ringo has replied
 Message 96 by Dogmafood, posted 05-20-2014 6:06 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 528 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 97 of 102 (727873)
05-21-2014 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Tanypteryx
05-20-2014 3:40 PM


Re: Referendum DD at End of Term/s
Tanypteryx writes:
So now you're anti-skiing? Have you no shame?
I'm not against you skiing. I just don't want to have to do it every time I leave the house.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-20-2014 3:40 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 528 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 98 of 102 (727874)
05-21-2014 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Dogmafood
05-20-2014 6:06 PM


Re: Theory of democracy
ProtoTypical writes:
My question was; when there is a vote why shouldn't the people affected be allowed to participate?
And the answer, many posts back, was that most people don't want to participate in every niggling detail - just like most people don't want to change their own oil. You are. in fact, allowed to participate if you so choose by lobbying your representative on every detail. With direct democracy, only those who choose to participate in the details get a say; those who are less detail-oriented are effectively disenfranchised.
ProtoTypical writes:
When I read the Wiki definition it says "Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens participate equally..."
That's a good example of how worthless argument by definition is.
ProtoTypical writes:
What I am trying to flesh out is why we are willing to kill and die for a concept that we do not actually believe in and are in fact afraid of. I am really curious about the basis of that fear.
You'll have to be more specific. I am personally not "willing" to either kill or die for anything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Dogmafood, posted 05-20-2014 6:06 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Dogmafood, posted 05-22-2014 3:59 PM ringo has replied

  
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