Homosexuality and Evo, Creo, and ID

Which only shows that a gay can be a better Christian than you and your bakers.

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...and it has to start with small things if it's going to come here too, and many think it's going to. I'd say it's arrived with the persecution of Christian businesses and the subpoenas of the Houston pastors myself,

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Pretending to be persecuted is just a way of trying make people do what you want. THAT is what is going on.There's no persecution of Christian businesses going on. Just "Christians" who put their bigotry over the law - going against the Bible.The Houston pastors aren't being persecuted either. These things happen in lawsuits - and let us not forget it was the "Christians" who launched the lawsuit, not the city.

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...but since you'll only accept full-blown genocide, if possible I'll let you know when it arrives since you'll certainly miss it otherwise.

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Faith, you need to understand that there are degrees of evidence between "nothing" and "absolute proof". Just because people won't accept "nothing" as sufficient evidence doesn't mean that they demand "absolute proof". Given that you can't find anything that adds up to real persecution in the U.S. at all - your evidence of a coming genocide is "nothing". There are plenty of laws in place to protect "Christians" and no move to repeal them.If "we're being persecuted" amounts to at most "we shouldn't have to obey any laws we don't like!" then it's hard to take seriously.Perhaps the biggest reason that you get frustrated here is that you expect people to agree with you even if you are obviously wrong. And that is your problem even if you keep trying to blame everybody else.

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You can't compare a criminal action with the subpoenas of the Houston pastors for political speech which is protected by the First Amendment.

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Now there's a fine example of a manipulative presentation. Subpoenas raised for a criminal investigation are exactly the sort of thing you'd expect to see if the government were really attacking the churches. But subpoenas to gather evidence for defence against prosecution are not. Perhaps, more importantly the question of whether the speech is protected is NOT relevant. Protected doesn't mean "secret" or confidential - and the idea that a sermon is intended to be confidential is nuts. All it means is that you can't be prosecuted for saying it. But the preachers are not being prosecuted, are they ? The question of protected speech is irrelevant - it is only being dragged up to make it seem as if the city did something really bad instead of just issuing overbroad subpoenas. Pure manipulation.Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

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The guy was a recent convert to Islam and beheaded the woman because that's what Islam says to do.

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Are you sure that you are talking about the same case ? Or have you made your usual mistake of jumping to conclusions you like, instead of investigating.

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Political Correctness is promoted by slanderous accusations, typical propaganda method. Form of ad hominem. Comparison with Goebbels Propaganda Ministry quite legitimate comparison of method.

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Thank you for saying that we can compare you with Goebbels. But then if we are believe you it is only our "topsy-turvey" values that say that slander is bad

I think we can sum up your post here by saying that you are upset that Hitler's methods aren't working for the campaign against gay marriage.The fact is that there are no legitimate arguments against it - and appeals to the Bible are obviously NOT legitimate.If you really want to disagree then address the issues instead of whining that people dare to criticise you and your side, when you feel perfectly free to viciously and falsely attack thos echo disagree.

Sure that it wasn't the recent murder of Jacob Crockett ?

Dr. adequate is not in the habit of saying things which are not true. You could have asked for clarification, you could have asked him to support his claim. Those would be the sort of response you would get in similar circumstances.

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Just as I was saying: We like to bash Christians at EvC, we like to call them haters and bigots to smear them and get others to hate them, instead of treating their cogent legitimate arguments with respect.

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Now that is a lie. Your arguments are frequently irrational and you resort to abuse and denial and misrepresentation when you lose. You get criticised because you earn it. In fact it is fair to say that when it comes to disrespecting cogent arguments you are one of the worst offenders in this board.

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Does kind of demonstrate my point about propaganda that you all insist on these other examples and don't even mention this one:

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It does illustrate what is really happening. Nobody denied that the other case occurred - I suggested that it was a different case. But it wasn't relevant. The examples were not chosen out of cogency. To show that it was true that a Christian had beheaded someone we had to show examples of a Christian beheading someone. Anything else is besides the point. You're just making an excuse - an obviously fallacious excuse - to attack people who proved you wrong. Surely a reprehensible action, worthy of criticism.

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Nope, it's an aberration and no culture practices it, just fringeys.

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You do realise that that is the sort of thing a bigot would say?

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Is a bigot someone who knows what she thinks because she's considered the issues and come to a reasoned conclusion?

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Obviously you haven't thought through the issues or if you have you havn't found a valid reason for the courts to reject gay marriage.And, of course, I was only pointing out that your comment tended to reinforce the idea that you we're a bigot. Is a little advice on how you present your position really so unwelcome?

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but you really should take into account that the tactic of calling people haters and bigots for expressing their political opinion is nothing but cheap bullying. Smear tactics. Propaganda.

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Yes, I'm aware of that. But you seem very upset when other people point out that is what you are doing.

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ABE: Let me repeat my opinion: No sane society, no major society, no whole culture, has ever endorsed gay marriage, just small groups of fringeys. And Nero is quite the model isn't he?

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Even if that is true of past history (and you'd need to address the claims to the contrary first) that doesn't change the fact that modern societies are allowing it without any problems or any signs that there are likely to be problems from gay marriage in itself.You need more than a vague appeal to history to have a good argument. Or indeed, to have considered the issues. If that's the best you can come up with then your opinion doesn't seem based on a through consideration of the issues at all. It looks - and I say looks - more like an attempt to come up with an excuse to justify a conclusion already reached.

"Obey me or God will kill you". You claim to have rational arguments but that's the best you can come up with ? if you want people to think that you have rational arguments that are being unfairly neglected then you need to actually produce them.I guess that your attack on the courts was just "the lowest form of propaganda" and proof that you really are full of hate.

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The point of course is that gay marriage is being forced on all of us by official decree

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It's not as if it affects you in any significant way, except for taking away an excuse for discriminating against homosexuals, so why are you complaining ?

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If it were just a matter of homosexuals setting up their own marriage rites and leaving the rest of us alone there wouldn't be all this brouhaha, but they are legally requiring it of the entire nation and bullying those who refuse it, and Christians will not accept it

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Duh! The whole point is to extend the legal status of marriage ! And in what way are you NOT being "left alone" by it ? You talk as if it was a terrible imposition but it obviously isn't.So what exactly is being "forced" on you ?

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What is being forced on us is the requirement that we accept gay marriage as legitimate.

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As a legal status. A purely secular matter. That is hardly a huge imposition on you. So it does indeed seem that your problem is that you have one less excuse for discriminating against homosexuals - because that is what you are complaining about.

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This is the basis for the horrible mistreatment of the Christians who would not lend their business services to endorsing gay marriage, which ought to be a protected freedom, but no longer.

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No, the basis for THAT - or rather the reality that you're exaggerating - is the anti-discrimination laws. And the fact that you don't think that the segregationists should be allowed the same freedom rather undermines your claims that you are being treated unjustly. As does your cries of "Nazi!" when I tried to reasonably discuss the matter.

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There is every reason to expect that merely saying one opposes gay marriage could bring down vicious retaliation under these circumstances.

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Given the amount of public opposition, and the vicious nature of some of it that seems to be somewhat far from the truth. If you were right there should have been a whole lot of "vicious retaliation" already. So there is every reason to think that you are just engaging in the "lowest form of propaganda".

If only they had followed the Bible they wouldn't have gotten into that mess.But of course you are changing the subject and presenting a one-sided and emotive - and inaccurate - attack.And so long as you agree that the segregationists don't have the right to deny the same services to interracial marriage you deny the existence of the very "rights" you are claiming. They do not lose their rights just because you disapprove of their "Christian" beliefs.

God Hates ShrimpWorth reading.

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The sheer evil rampant on this thread is apparently not even noticed by many here.

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But when we draw attention to it you complain.

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And I'm including that evil article comparing the OT law against shrimp

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Did you READ it ? What is so evil about it ?

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But we aren't even objecting to people living as they please. THEY are objecting to Christians obeying our conscience.

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Isn't it true that you object strongly to the legalisation of gay marriage ? That people like you are working hard to prevent it ? With all the disadvantages to gay couple that entails ? That seems to me that you want to disadvantage people for living lives that you disapprove of. Even though it hurts you not at all. Oh and we shouldn't forget your nasty and unfounded attack on the courts for coming to decisions you don't like.