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Author Topic:   The blurry line between religious and crazy
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 46 of 95 (728380)
05-27-2014 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by MFFJM2
05-27-2014 2:12 PM


Re: destination/s
MFFJM2 writes:
but in conducting their final solution they were mercilessly efficient, far beyond anything ever seen before.
Holocaust
1941-1945 4.5-17 million
Holodomor Holodomor - Wikipedia
1932-1933 2.4-7.5 million ( more efficient and seen before. )

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by MFFJM2, posted 05-27-2014 2:12 PM MFFJM2 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by NoNukes, posted 05-27-2014 3:13 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 95 (728381)
05-27-2014 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by MFFJM2
05-27-2014 2:12 PM


Re: destination/s
Efficiency is a ratio comparing results to some base. I haven't heard a single defense of efficiency that even promotes some way of comparing an inefficient killing and taking machine to a non-efficient one. Yes, a monstrous number of people were killed, so the Germans were quite successful and effective. Efficient? Give me some way to judge.
And the idea that the Germans were extremely effective at hiding what they did is just nonsense. Just keeping the Jews away from the front lines was enough to keep what they were doing out of the Allies face. That plus the large amount of indifference about the Jews through-out Europe and the US probably explains a lot.
Effective is not the same as efficient.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by MFFJM2, posted 05-27-2014 2:12 PM MFFJM2 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by ringo, posted 05-28-2014 11:49 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 95 (728382)
05-27-2014 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by 1.61803
05-27-2014 3:01 PM


Re: destination/s
More efficient at killing that dropping two nukes on Japanese cities? How about calculating the death rate in dollars of gasoline per death? Nuking Japan Certainly cheaper and more efficient, if you insist on that kind of characterization, than stuffing people in a bunch of railroad cars.
Yes, I understand that you said "before", but I'm just saying. I'd suggest that the Battle of Gettysburg was more efficient in wiping out life than were the Nazi's despite the fact that fewer people died.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by 1.61803, posted 05-27-2014 3:01 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by 1.61803, posted 05-27-2014 3:25 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 49 of 95 (728383)
05-27-2014 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by NoNukes
05-27-2014 3:13 PM


Re: destination/s
See my response to MFFJM2.
I have no argument with you. In fact agree with you.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by NoNukes, posted 05-27-2014 3:13 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 50 of 95 (728384)
05-27-2014 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by MFFJM2
05-27-2014 1:24 PM


Re: destination/s
The Nazi final solution was not formally decided until the Swansea Conference.
A dark chapter in the history of Wales.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by MFFJM2, posted 05-27-2014 1:24 PM MFFJM2 has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 51 of 95 (728409)
05-28-2014 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by NoNukes
05-27-2014 3:08 PM


Re: destination/s
NoNukes writes:
Give me some way to judge.
Two-thirds of the target population destroyed.
NoNukes writes:
Effective is not the same as efficient.
The bean-counters can take comfort in the inefficiency of the Holocaust while the rest of us remain horrified at its effectiveness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by NoNukes, posted 05-27-2014 3:08 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by 1.61803, posted 05-28-2014 3:15 PM ringo has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 52 of 95 (728430)
05-28-2014 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by ringo
05-28-2014 11:49 AM


Re: destination/s
Ringo writes:
The bean-counters can take comfort in the inefficiency of the Holocaust while the rest of us remain horrified at its effectiveness.
Hi Ringo,
I think it is normal to be horrified, saddened, dismayed, and all the other variations of emotion the holocaust can instill.
But to me.
Grandizing Natzi genocidal efficiency is repugnant.
It is like something Natzi fanboys would do.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by ringo, posted 05-28-2014 11:49 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by ringo, posted 05-28-2014 3:37 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 53 of 95 (728431)
05-28-2014 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by 1.61803
05-28-2014 3:15 PM


Re: destination/s
approximately 1.6 writes:
But to me.
Grandizing Natzi genocidal efficiency is repugnant.
To me, minimizing genocidal efficiency is repugnant.
It has nothing to do with being a Nazi "fan". Demonizing the Nazis is dangerous. They are not "somebody else". They are us, under slightly different circumstances.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by 1.61803, posted 05-28-2014 3:15 PM 1.61803 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by NoNukes, posted 05-28-2014 4:32 PM ringo has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 95 (728434)
05-28-2014 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by ringo
05-28-2014 3:37 PM


Re: destination/s
No one is minimizing efficiency. Just distinguishing it from brutal thoroughness. No need to misuse words just to give Nazi's some props. And calling such action zunprecdented was also wrong. And not even all Germans were Nazis. We don't demonize Nazis because it is trite and not because were all just like them.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by ringo, posted 05-28-2014 3:37 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by ringo, posted 05-29-2014 11:53 AM NoNukes has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 55 of 95 (728469)
05-29-2014 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by NoNukes
05-28-2014 4:32 PM


Re: destination/s
NoNukes writes:
No one is minimizing efficiency. Just distinguishing it from brutal thoroughness.
Except in the strictly mathematical sense - and if I had meant "in the mathematcal sense" I would have said "in the mathematical sense" - there is no fundamental distinction between efficiency and thoroughness.
NoNukes writes:
And calling such action zunprecdented was also wrong.
Did I call it unprecedented?
But if there's a prior example of factories designed to systematically steal hair and teeth, I'm not aware of it.
NoNukes writes:
And not even all Germans were Nazis.
Who said they were?
There was a whole spectrum: True Believer Nazis, Nazis who went along to get along, non-Nazis who collaborated, non-Nazis who conveniently looked the other way, anti-Nazis who helped the Jews. Portraying them all as bumbling fools is what I'm arguing against.
They did an extremely efficient/effective/thorough job of what they set out to do

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by NoNukes, posted 05-28-2014 4:32 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by NoNukes, posted 05-29-2014 12:14 PM ringo has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 95 (728472)
05-29-2014 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by ringo
05-29-2014 11:53 AM


Re: destination/s
Except in the strictly mathematical sense - and if I had meant "in the mathematcal sense" I would have said "in the mathematical sense" - there is no fundamental distinction between efficiency and thoroughness.
You aren't the only person participating in the thread. If you want to make up your own definitions, then it is not legitimate to criticize others for using more correct ones. Efficiency and thoroughness are quite obviously different.
I've been quite clear about what I mean by efficient. If instead, as you now claim, it was all about the dictionary, then your silliness about being offended is easily seen to be nonsense. Obviously the people saying that the Nazi's were not efficient are not saying that the Nazi's did not succeed.
The distinction between the two descriptions, efficient vs. thorough, is that the later simply gives the Nazi leaders the credit for being determined, evil, murderers that they were, while calling them efficient suggests something quite different. Well it turns out that murdering a bunch of innocent, largely unarmed people using an army is not all that special. We've seen any number of people manage to do it.
Did I call it unprecedented?
Not everything is about you personally. Yes, that term has been used in this thread.
me writes:
And not even all Germans were Nazis
ringo writes:
Who said they were?
There was a whole spectrum:
My comment was in response to your statement that the Nazi's are us. They aren't us. At the very least they are not me and you can tell me if they are you. Taken out of context as you do here, the statement is a bit easier to attack.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by ringo, posted 05-29-2014 11:53 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by ringo, posted 05-29-2014 12:30 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 58 by NosyNed, posted 05-29-2014 12:33 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 57 of 95 (728475)
05-29-2014 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by NoNukes
05-29-2014 12:14 PM


Re: destination/s
NoNukes writes:
If you want to make up your own definitions, then it is not legitimate to criticize others for using more correct ones.
I'm not criticizing anybody for using "correct" definitions. I'm objecting to being criticized for using broader definitions.
NoNukes writes:
I've been quite clear about what I mean by efficient.
And so have I.
NoNukes writes:
ringo writes:
Did I call it unprecedented?
Not everything is about you personally. Yes, that term has been used in this thread.
When you're replying to me, the implication is that you're replying to me. You might want to be as careful of your references as you are about your definitions.
NoNukes writes:
My comment was in response to your statement that the Nazi's are us. They aren't us. At the very least they are not me and you can tell me if they are you.
If you think "it can't happen here" you're sadly mistaken.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by NoNukes, posted 05-29-2014 12:14 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


(3)
Message 58 of 95 (728476)
05-29-2014 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by NoNukes
05-29-2014 12:14 PM


Like Us
Once many, decades ago I watched a TV interview with Albert Speer (the "architect" of the 3rd Reich). There were a couple of things that really stuck in my mind.
In one he and Dan Rather (I think it was) watched a short video of Hitler playing the children and his dog (a German Shepard of course ). Rather commented that it seemed so strange to see this "monster" looking so normal. This was the one time where Speer became very agitated. He said, no, no you must not think of him as some sort of monster. Someone separate and different from all of us. If we do that we forget to be on the alert for others like him. Not his exact words of course but I got his point as being that we must recognize the dark side of humans and not treat the beasts like Hitler as "not true humans". As individuals we may have more or less of this darkness but we must not forget or ignore the possibility in anyone.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by NoNukes, posted 05-29-2014 12:14 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by 1.61803, posted 05-30-2014 10:37 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 59 of 95 (728548)
05-30-2014 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by NosyNed
05-29-2014 12:33 PM


Re: Like Us
Hi Nosy Ned,
the fact that "we" can not comprehend "their" heinous acts does not mean "we" dismiss the fact that they can appear normal, kind, etc. The fact that "we" draw a distinction between US and Them (Natzis) is because we were the good guys and they where the bad guys. Period. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
It is true given the right circumstances otherwise "normal" people can resort to atrocious behavior.
The Stanford prision experiment for
example.
Stanford prison experiment - Wikipedia
or Abu Ghraib
Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse - Wikipedia
It seems humans are predisposed and have a propesity to do great evil. But I do not mistake this as demonizing the Natzis.
No I detest them because of what they did and what they stood for .
Edited by 1.61803, : spelling

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by NosyNed, posted 05-29-2014 12:33 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by ringo, posted 05-30-2014 11:48 AM 1.61803 has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 60 of 95 (728552)
05-30-2014 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by 1.61803
05-30-2014 10:37 AM


Re: Like Us
approximately 1.6 writes:
The fact that "we" draw a distinction between US and Them (Natzis) is because we were the good guys and they where the bad guys.
That's what Stalin said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by 1.61803, posted 05-30-2014 10:37 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by 1.61803, posted 05-30-2014 1:01 PM ringo has replied

  
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