Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 55 (9171 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: Neptune7
Post Volume: Total: 917,386 Year: 4,643/9,624 Month: 418/1,096 Week: 13/110 Day: 0/6 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Ancient Biblical ritual saves MILLIONS of lives
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1087 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


(1)
Message 46 of 98 (720677)
02-26-2014 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Stile
02-25-2014 10:30 AM


Re: Living in the past
Made sense then... not so much now.
I think you have this completely backwards, if you think about it for a minute.
Circumcision today, when performed in a modern medical facility, is much safer than it has been for people throughout history. The risk of infection in the days before proper antibiotics would of course have been much higher - significantly higher than the risk of HIV, which did not yet exist. This is easily illustrated by a study conducted in Kenya, Lesotho and Tanzania. While studies have suggested that circumcision reduces HIV rates in sexually active heterosexual men, this one looked at children and virgins, and found that they were more likely to have HIV if circumcised than if not, because of the risk of disease transmission as part of the operation, particularly in places where it's done in unhygienic conditions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Stile, posted 02-25-2014 10:30 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Stile, posted 02-26-2014 2:45 PM caffeine has replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1087 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 59 of 98 (720877)
02-28-2014 4:42 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Stile
02-26-2014 2:45 PM


Re: Living in the past
No, I meant it the way it's written. I think you and I are talking about two different ideas, though.
I know that's what you meant, I was just telling you that you're wrong.
You seem to be comparing the deaths directly related by the surgery of circumcision itself vs. the deaths from HIV alone.
With this idea, I agree with your point.
But that's not the idea I was talking about.
In the "old times" I was talking about, I'm not only worried about "deaths from HIV" for those who were uncircumcised.
I was speaking much more about the deaths just from general uncleanliness for those who were uncircumcised. Which includes a lot more deaths. Especially without modern cleaning practices.
I do agree that modern medicine has drastically reduced the risk of infection with regards to circumcision.
But it is grossly outweighed by the risk of disease (all disease, not just HIV) for the uncircumcised if you take away modern cleaning practices (washing every day...).
I'm not sure from where you're getting your figures for the number of deaths related to infection from surgery and the number of deaths from venereal disease that would have been prevented by circumcision in the ancient world. For obvious reasons, there aren't any, so this can be nothing but speculation.
I'd disagree that washing every day is a modern cleaning practice. Don't look to the appalling hygiene standards that existed in pre-modern Europe and assume this was the standard for the ancient world. Most pre-modern cultures had stricter hygiene standards than this, including those which practiced circumcision. Egyptian culture, in particular, was very fastidious about cleanliness, and Arabic culture also has traditions of ritual washing.
Basic cleanliness was easier in ancient times than sterile operations, so I still doubt circumcision had significant health benefits in the ancient world, even if it may today.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Stile, posted 02-26-2014 2:45 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Eliyahu, posted 02-28-2014 6:37 AM caffeine has replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1087 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 64 of 98 (720893)
02-28-2014 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Eliyahu
02-28-2014 6:37 AM


Re: Better to live in the present
In the desert water is a precious commodity, so that is not wasted on mundane things like washing everyday.
That's why very few people live in deserts. Ancient Egypt wasn't a desert civilisation. The desert was mostly empty of people, just like today. Ancient Egypt was the river Nile and the coast - places with abundant water amenable to growth of human civillisation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Eliyahu, posted 02-28-2014 6:37 AM Eliyahu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Theodoric, posted 02-28-2014 9:50 AM caffeine has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024