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Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: are "stand your ground" laws license to kill? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I would expect that criminals who are assaulting people would be shot to death more in states that allow their law-abiding citizens to protect themselves. And I would expect more criminals to carry guns and use them without waiting to see if their victim has a gun. Is that a good thing? When you escalate an arms race you increase the use of arms for lethal purposes. Is that a good thing? Really?by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
And there do seem to be people who spend their whole lives waiting for that one glorious day when they'll be legally justified in shooting someone Indeed, and they'll be happy to tell you how ready they are, how prepared, how well trained ... ... and without a clue that there are options. It's all (ahem) black and white in their world. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Unless those are required before purchasing a gun (as well as regular refresher courses), I really don't see how this helps. In my state, they're required for obtaining the permit to concealed carry. I'll be taking the course after it warms up. I don't plan on carrying on my person much, but it makes it easier to transport firearms to the range in my car.
If we get rid of the "stand your ground" laws, how does that punish law-abiders? You're reducing their ability to legally defend themselves.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
You didn't answer my question.
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Taq Member Posts: 10045 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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In my state, they're required for obtaining the permit to concealed carry. As other examples have shown, the stand your ground laws also apply to open carry.
You're reducing their ability to legally defend themselves. No, it isn't. People have always been able to defend themselves with firearms. The problem with the stand your ground laws is that justifies the use of offensive tactics, not defensive.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
The problem with the stand your ground laws is that justifies the use of offensive tactics, not defensive. No they don't. All they do is remove the duty to retreat.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
The problem with the stand your ground laws is that justifies the use of offensive tactics, not defensive. No they don't. All they do is remove the duty to retreat. In both Zimmerman and Dunn cases they instigated the confrontation, they attacked and they were on the offensive, then claimed that it was defense. Without stand your ground they would not have passed muster for self defense -- as Dunn did not for the other three teens, and that is why the law is bad. Edited by RAZD, : ...by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Taq Member Posts: 10045 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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No they don't. The duty to retreat is defending yourself, and what a law abiding citizen would do.
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vimesey Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined: |
Couple things on this one.
But that's not a bad thing. First off, you say that criminals who are assaulting people being shot to death is not a bad thing. Can I assume that, more fully, you intended to say that shooting to death criminals who are assaulting people with deadly force and intent to kill those people, is not a bad thing ? Presumably, shooting to death a criminal who is throwing a punch at someone in a bar room brawl, is in fact a bad thing ? Secondly, is it wrong to balance the occasions when innocent people are shot dead by accident, stupidity or other misadventure resulting from the easy availability of weapons, against legitimate examples of proper self-defence ?Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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kjsimons Member Posts: 822 From: Orlando,FL Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
RAZD, there is no evidence that Zimmerman attacked, but there was ample evidence that he was attacked. Granted he was stupid and after he had called the police he should have stayed in his truck. Having your head bashed against the sidewalk does give you the right to defend yourself. The evidence is that he was on his back and shot upwards.
Dunn has no defense. The issue here is that the prosecution got greedy and didn't put a lesser charge of murder for the jury to consider. They just couldn't agree that it was premeditated. Note that the Zimmerman case did not invoke the stand your ground defense.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
RAZD, there is no evidence that Zimmerman attacked, ... Curiously I didn't say he attacked, I said he instigated the confrontation, which he did by stalking Trevon. After he was told to stand down by the police.
... but there was ample evidence that he was attacked. ... No, there is evidence that there was a fight, but you only have Zimmerman's (biased) word as to who started it, and how much does stalking count ...
Note that the Zimmerman case did not invoke the stand your ground defense. What planet are you from? That's how he got off, and why one of the jurors said he "got away with murder."
Dunn has no defense. The issue here is that the prosecution got greedy and didn't put a lesser charge of murder for the jury to consider. They just couldn't agree that it was premeditated. Agreed, and the other thing they didn't pursue was whether or not it was a hate crime -- and all the evidence that points to hate crime was then not admitted, when that shows the state of mind of Dunn. With hate crime evidence they could have gotten murder 1. Edited by RAZD, : ..by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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kjsimons Member Posts: 822 From: Orlando,FL Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
You said
In both Zimmerman and Dunn cases they instigated the confrontation, they attacked and they were on the offensive, then claimed that it was defense. In english, you pretty much directly said they attacked. You preface it by saying they instigated it but then followed up with the 'A' word. Unless you were referring to Travon/the kids in the SUV when you said "they attacked". But that makes no sense because in the Dunn case there is no evidence that the kids did anything of the sort. And I stand by my claim that Zimmerman didn't invoke the stand your ground defence. Google it and see. This was a local story, taking place not more than five miles from where I'm sitting now. Believe me we were all inundated with constant coverage, local and national. Zimmerman to argue self-defense, won't seek stand-your-ground hearing | CNNDespite backlash, 'stand your ground' laws did not apply to Zimmerman case Edited by kjsimons, : No reason given.
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Taq Member Posts: 10045 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Curiously I didn't say he attacked, I said he instigated the confrontation, which he did by stalking Trevon. After he was told to stand down by the police. If Trevon had a gun and shot Zimmerman as he was being stalked, Trevon could have used the stand your ground laws as a justification for the killing. I find that quite ironic.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
If Trevon had a gun and shot Zimmerman as he was being stalked, Trevon could have used the stand your ground laws as a justification for the killing. I find that quite ironic. You would think it would work that way, but the evidence of instances of blacks defending themselves in Florida is that the "stand your ground" argument was not allowed and they were convicted ... With the same prosecutor ... is she showing bias in her results? by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Ok ... "they attacked"
And I stand by my claim that Zimmerman didn't invoke the stand your ground defence. Google it and see. This was a local story, taking place not more than five miles from where I'm sitting now. Believe me we were all inundated with constant coverage, local and national. Was or was not "stand your ground" included in the instructions to the jury ? Zimmerman verdict renews focus on 'stand your ground' laws
quote: Do you disagree that it was central to his acquittal? Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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