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Author Topic:   SCIENCE: -- "observational science" vs "historical science" vs ... science.
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 406 of 614 (735115)
08-06-2014 12:18 AM


Not being able to recognize that you cannot test or prove the scenarios about the prehistoric past shows a real mental problem. I think the distinction in the end comes down to whether there are witnesses or not. And you'll get that all wrong too. You know why? Because you won't let yourselves THINK about what I mean, you''ll just fix on the stupidest possible idea about what the word means and impute that to me and give your stupid answer to it. You'll trot out forensics though I've answered that a million times already.
All real science is testable because multiple people can see the result and do the tests themselves. With the scenarios of the past all those multiple people can see the stuff in the rocks that is interpreted that way, they can see the theory in other words, but all they can do is agree or disagree with the interpretation, so it remains a theory forever. Since they've all been brainwashed into the Old Earth assumption they will of course agree, so that's how you get your consensus.
There are no witnesses to such a past, certainly no witnesses from such a past, there is nothing but the idiotic interpretation of what's in a rock as the WHOLE basis for a WHOLE idea about a WHOLE other world that can never be proved.
So now do your stupid little straw man dance, everybody. Make your idiotic little straw man analogies, Dr. A. Nobody here is capable of following a simple line of argument. Really because of entrenched bias, a lack of willingness to understand anything a creationist would say.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 407 by NoNukes, posted 08-06-2014 12:29 AM Faith has replied
 Message 409 by Pressie, posted 08-06-2014 1:16 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 410 by PaulK, posted 08-06-2014 1:31 AM Faith has replied
 Message 411 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-06-2014 4:49 AM Faith has replied
 Message 412 by Pressie, posted 08-06-2014 7:13 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 416 by Pressie, posted 08-06-2014 9:03 AM Faith has replied
 Message 429 by herebedragons, posted 08-06-2014 10:02 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 441 by Taq, posted 08-08-2014 1:18 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 407 of 614 (735116)
08-06-2014 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 406 by Faith
08-06-2014 12:18 AM


I think the distinction in the end comes down to whether there are witnesses or not. And you'll get that all wrong too.
Nobody witnessed the creation of the Grand Canyon, but that does not stop you from blathering on about that.
But as has also been pointed out, nobody has ever witnessed fusion on the sun, the atoms that make up water, or quarks.
For the Blithering Idiots, Raving Lunatics, Cowardly Conformists, Barbarian Bigots and all the rest of you.
Nice. I'm rubber you are glue.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by Faith, posted 08-06-2014 12:18 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 408 by Faith, posted 08-06-2014 12:31 AM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 414 by herebedragons, posted 08-06-2014 7:37 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 408 of 614 (735117)
08-06-2014 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 407 by NoNukes
08-06-2014 12:29 AM


First stupid knee-jerk unthinking straw man post.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by NoNukes, posted 08-06-2014 12:29 AM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 413 by JonF, posted 08-06-2014 7:35 AM Faith has replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 409 of 614 (735119)
08-06-2014 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 406 by Faith
08-06-2014 12:18 AM


Faith writes:
Really because of entrenched bias, a lack of willingness to understand anything a creationist would say.
Nope. It's because of the history in dealing with creationists.
Creationists tend to lack providing evidence for what they claim and assert. They don't follow the scientific method.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by Faith, posted 08-06-2014 12:18 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 410 of 614 (735120)
08-06-2014 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 406 by Faith
08-06-2014 12:18 AM


quote:
Not being able to recognize that you cannot test or prove the scenarios about the prehistoric past shows a real mental problem
Because Faith, we often CAN test scenarios. Knowing facts that you refuse to accept is not a "mental problem" on our side. To use a simple example we could look at your flood scenario and see if it offers an explanation of the order of the fossil record. When we see it doesn't, we as honest people, admit that your scenario has failed a major test. You, on the other hand, try to cover it up.
This is the strength of consilence.
quote:
think the distinction in the end comes down to whether there are witnesses or not. And you'll get that all wrong too. You know why? Because you won't let yourselves THINK about what I mean, you''ll just fix on the stupidest possible idea about what the word means and impute that to me and give your stupid answer to it. You'll trot out forensics though I've answered that a million times already.
The whole point of this creationist argument is to assert that the absence of intelligent observers in the scenarios of science disqualifies them, while their assertion that Genesis is an eye-witness account (something the book itself does not claim at all) means that Genesis should be accepted as true. That's the whole point of using the word "witnesses".
And of course the big problem for you is that as soon as you include other evidence then you have to take each scenario separately and show that it does not have adequate evidence. Which would mean actually knowing and understanding that evidence. Since you are trying to make a general purpose argument and have a habit of not bothering to properly investigate the evidence taking this wider view not only departs from the obvious - and originally intended - meaning of the argument - it makes it useless to you.
quote:
All real science is testable because multiple people can see the result and do the tests themselves. With the scenarios of the past all those multiple people can see the stuff in the rocks that is interpreted that way, they can see the theory in other words, but all they can do is agree or disagree with the interpretation, so it remains a theory forever. Since they've all been brainwashed into the Old Earth assumption they will of course agree, so that's how you get your consensus.
And this is why you don't get respect here. This is just abusive, nasty lying. An a demonstration of hypocrisy on your part, too.
quote:
There are no witnesses to such a past, certainly no witnesses from such a past, there is nothing but the idiotic interpretation of what's in a rock as the WHOLE basis for a WHOLE idea about a WHOLE other world that can never be proved.
I'll just point out that you think that you can determine what happened in the past - on a world-wide scale - from a superficial examination of one , or at most a few, sites. Geologists don't do anything like that.
For example, your insistence that all (major) tectonic events happened after all the rocks were laid down, based only on your examination of the Grand Canyon. Do you call that "idiotic" ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by Faith, posted 08-06-2014 12:18 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 418 by Faith, posted 08-06-2014 9:25 AM PaulK has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 411 of 614 (735123)
08-06-2014 4:49 AM
Reply to: Message 406 by Faith
08-06-2014 12:18 AM


Try Again, Again, Again
Not being able to recognize that you cannot test or prove the scenarios about the prehistoric past shows a real mental problem. I think the distinction in the end comes down to whether there are witnesses or not.
And yet you admitted that we could verify the existence of former living stegosauruses from their bones, although that is a proposition about the prehistoric past for which there is no witnesses.
So, would you like to take another run at it? You would do well to (a) accept the scientific method (b) find a distinction that does what you actually want it to do or (c) shut up until you can bring yourself to do either (a) or (b). As it stands what you are doing, in effect, is denouncing yourself for having a "real mental problem" for believing in stegosauruses, when that is in fact pretty much your one concession to reality.
All real science is testable because multiple people can see the result and do the tests themselves. With the scenarios of the past all those multiple people can see the stuff in the rocks that is interpreted that way, they can see the theory in other words, but all they can do is agree or disagree with the interpretation, so it remains a theory forever. Since they've all been brainwashed into the Old Earth assumption they will of course agree, so that's how you get your consensus.
You still haven't explained how this brainwashing took place, despite my repeated inquiries. You seem to be requiring that we believe in a sequence of past events that you yourself can't even imagine, let alone produce evidence for.
There are no witnesses to such a past, certainly no witnesses from such a past, there is nothing but the idiotic interpretation of what's in a rock as the WHOLE basis for a WHOLE idea about a WHOLE other world that can never be proved.
Yeah, for example people say that that unwitnessed past contained stegosauruses, and you believe them. You say that that's fine.
So now do your stupid little straw man dance, everybody. Make your idiotic little straw man analogies, Dr. A. Nobody here is capable of following a simple line of argument.
You yourself are not following your argument. You don't apply it to facts that your religion permits you to acknowledge, such as former living stegosauruses. Now, if you think your argument is bullshit, you can hardly complain when we concur.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by Faith, posted 08-06-2014 12:18 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 419 by Faith, posted 08-06-2014 9:25 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


(2)
Message 412 of 614 (735124)
08-06-2014 7:13 AM
Reply to: Message 406 by Faith
08-06-2014 12:18 AM


Faith writes:
Not being able to recognize that you cannot test or prove the scenarios about the prehistoric past shows...
Well, we can test whether lavas can turn into coal seams or not. Just go to Hawaii. Solidifying lavas over there have never been witnessed to turn into coal seams. Those lavas have always tended to become some form of a basalt. Witnessed.
Faith writes:
... a real mental problem.
I think the mental problem lies with the person who is not able to distinguish a basalt from a coal seam.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by Faith, posted 08-06-2014 12:18 AM Faith has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 413 of 614 (735127)
08-06-2014 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 408 by Faith
08-06-2014 12:31 AM


First stupid knee-jerk unthinking straw man post.
When are you going to post your second stupid knee-jerk unthinking straw man post?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 408 by Faith, posted 08-06-2014 12:31 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 421 by Faith, posted 08-06-2014 9:27 AM JonF has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 414 of 614 (735128)
08-06-2014 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 407 by NoNukes
08-06-2014 12:29 AM


Faith writes:
For the Blithering Idiots, Raving Lunatics, Cowardly Conformists, Barbarian Bigots and all the rest of you.
LOL. Was this from Message 406? It seems she edited out this little bit of love.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by NoNukes, posted 08-06-2014 12:29 AM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 415 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-06-2014 8:16 AM herebedragons has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 415 of 614 (735130)
08-06-2014 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 414 by herebedragons
08-06-2014 7:37 AM


I think it's a rather narrow-minded categorization of her opponents. What if I'm actually a Barbarian Conformist? You know, raping and pillaging 'cos of peer-group pressure?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 414 by herebedragons, posted 08-06-2014 7:37 AM herebedragons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 417 by herebedragons, posted 08-06-2014 9:04 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 416 of 614 (735137)
08-06-2014 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 406 by Faith
08-06-2014 12:18 AM


Faith writes:
I think the distinction in the end comes down to whether there are witnesses or not.
Lots of witnesses testified than lava would turn into igneous rocks. Not into coal seams. All in peer-reviewed, scientific journals.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by Faith, posted 08-06-2014 12:18 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 420 by Faith, posted 08-06-2014 9:26 AM Pressie has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 417 of 614 (735138)
08-06-2014 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 415 by Dr Adequate
08-06-2014 8:16 AM


What if I'm actually a Barbarian Conformist?
I'm sure that would be fine; mix and match as you wish, as long as it reflects negatively on your character - which is of the course the important part.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-06-2014 8:16 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 418 of 614 (735143)
08-06-2014 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 410 by PaulK
08-06-2014 1:31 AM


Second stupid knee-jerk unthinking straw man post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by PaulK, posted 08-06-2014 1:31 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 423 by Pressie, posted 08-06-2014 9:30 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 424 by PaulK, posted 08-06-2014 9:36 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 419 of 614 (735144)
08-06-2014 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 411 by Dr Adequate
08-06-2014 4:49 AM


Re: Try Again, Again, Again
Third stupid knee-jerk unthinking straw man post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-06-2014 4:49 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 420 of 614 (735145)
08-06-2014 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 416 by Pressie
08-06-2014 9:03 AM


Fourth stupid knee-jerk unthinking straw man post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 416 by Pressie, posted 08-06-2014 9:03 AM Pressie has not replied

  
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