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Author Topic:   Darwin on the Savage races
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 16 of 114 (718264)
02-05-2014 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Jaf
02-05-2014 8:21 PM


Hitler allegedly was a big fan of Darwin's clearly racist views in that he was able to "scientifically supported" exterminate the "sub human" Jew in the aid of furthering evolution with the full support of Darwin's "science".
Who alleges it? And I bet I can make a stronger case that Houston Chamberlains German nationalistic work in Die Grundlagen had more influence on Hitler than anything Darwin said.
Hitler believed in the immutability of the species. 'The fox remains always a fox, the goose remains a goose, and the tiger will retain the character of a tiger.' he said, so it's clear that while they may have superficially agreed on some things (and I see no reason to see Darwin agreeing with Hitler about the necessity for the Aryan race to eradicate the world of Jews), they disagreed more fundamentally on others.
And how does that make Darwin's comments fascist?

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(5)
Message 17 of 114 (718265)
02-05-2014 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jaf
02-05-2014 6:46 PM


Welcome to the fray, Jaf. What's that mean?
One of the things I like about Quotes, is that they can speak so much to us. All the different things that a quote can be interpreted to be saying makes them really impactful.
One of the things I *don't* like about quoting, though, is that I don't feel like I get a good sense of what the author was actually saying. All those impactful interpretations really cloud the message, in my experience.
So, for that, I look to context.
Darwin predicted that around about now "At some future period, not very distant, as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly (almost certainly, a favourite evolutionist interpretation of a proven fact) exterminate and replace throughout the world, the savage races"
Where can I find the context for that quote?
Still though, what do you think Darwin's *point* was? What was he trying to say?
Rather non PC but since it's science might I ask how potentially modern day members of the savage races who survived Darwin's fascist racist blatherings particularly evolutionists, feel about this?
I think he was right, and it already happened. Prolly still is happening.
Further more might I ask why musings like this are not equally mocked as wistful fables?
Wait, did you thing that we'd think he was wrong?
"For my own part I would soon be descended from that heroic little monkey who braved his dreaded enemy to save the life of his keeper, or that old baboon, who, descending the mountains, carried away in triumph his young comrade from a crowd of astonished dogs - as from a savage... "
Darwin quotes from The Decsent of Man
Ah, now that one I could find. So let's look at the context:
quote:
The main conclusion arrived at in this work, namely that man is descended from some lowly-organised form, will, I regret to think, be highly distasteful to many. But there can hardly be a doubt that we are descended from barbarians. The astonishment which I felt on first seeing a part of Fuegians on a wild and broken shore will never be forgotten by me, for the reflection at once rushed into my mind - such were our ancestors.
These men were absolutely naked and bedaubed with paint, their long hair tangled, their mouths frothed with excitement, and their expression was wild, startled, and distrustful. They possessed hardly any arts, and like wild animals lived on what they could catch; they had no government, and were merciless to every one not of their own small tribe. He who has seen a savage in his native land will not feel much shame, if forced to acknowledge that the blood of some more humble creatures flows in his veins. For my own part I would soon be descended from that heroic little monkey who braved his dreaded enemy to save the life of his keeper, or that old baboon, who, descending the mountains, carried away in triumph his young comrade from a crowd of astonished dogs - as from a savage who delights to torture his enemies, offers up bloody sacrifices, practices infanticide without remorse, treats his wives like slaves, knows no decency, and is haunted by the grossest superstition.
Man may be excused for feeling some pride at having risen, though not through his own exertions, to the very summit of the organic scale; and the fact of his having thus, instead of having been aboriginally placed there, may give him hope for a still higher destiny in the distant future. But we are not here concerned with hopes or fears, only with the truth as far as our reason permits us to discover it. I have given the evidence to the best of my ability; and we must acknowledge, as it seems to me, that man with all his noble qualities, with sympathy which feels for the most debased, with benevolenvce which extends not only to other men but to the humblest living creature, with god-like intellect which has penetreated into the movenments and sonstitution of the solar system - with all these exalted powers - Man still bears in hid bodily frame the indelible stam of his lowly origin.
Okay, so the part you quoted:
quote:
For my own part I would soon be descended from that heroic little monkey who braved his dreaded enemy to save the life of his keeper, or that old baboon, who, descending the mountains, carried away in triumph his young comrade from a crowd of astonished dogs - as from a savage
...gets cut off mid-sentence. Here's the whole quote:
quote:
For my own part I would soon be descended from that heroic little monkey who braved his dreaded enemy to save the life of his keeper, or that old baboon, who, descending the mountains, carried away in triumph his young comrade from a crowd of astonished dogs - as from a savage who delights to torture his enemies, offers up bloody sacrifices, practices infanticide without remorse, treats his wives like slaves, knows no decency, and is haunted by the grossest superstition.
And yeah, geez, he really tears into those savages. I can see how you can see racism there.
But what is the point he is making?
quote:
Man may be excused for feeling some pride at having risen, though not through his own exertions, to the very summit of the organic scale; and the fact of his having thus, instead of having been aboriginally placed there, may give him hope for a still higher destiny in the distant future.
You might feel like you've earned the hand that you've been dealt, but really you just got lucky to land there.
quote:
I have given the evidence to the best of my ability; and we must acknowledge, as it seems to me, that man with all his noble qualities, with sympathy which feels for the most debased, with benevolence which extends not only to other men but to the humblest living creature, with god-like intellect which has penetrated into the movements and constitution of the solar system - with all these exalted powers -
And sticking strictly to the facts as observed, despite all the bias we have from being so awesome:
quote:
Man still bears in hid bodily frame the indelible stamp of his lowly origin.
We all came from those savages that he tore in to.
The point is that some people may seem to be of a lower quality than we think we are, but we all evolved through those phases. He's just contrasting "them" with "us" when he tears into them. It separates the reader from the group he's describing so that he can later say; 'but wait, you're actually in that group as well'. He goes on further to say that it wasn't anything that any of us did, to get us into this awesome group that we think we're in, we all just happened to land here by luck.
Now, can you see that the original portion you quoted, that you have to admit had been chopped up a bit, was made to sound more racist than the actual point that Chuck was making?
Do you think what he really was saying is as racist as you were originally interpreting it to be?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jaf, posted 02-05-2014 6:46 PM Jaf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Coyote, posted 02-05-2014 9:25 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 19 by Jaf, posted 02-05-2014 10:02 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 18 of 114 (718266)
02-05-2014 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by New Cat's Eye
02-05-2014 9:14 PM


Do you think what he really was saying is as racist as you were originally interpreting it to be?
I think the whole purpose of that opening post was to try to trash Darwin, and hence to discredit the theory of evolution.
Unfortunately for creationists, it doesn't work that way in the sciences.
In the sciences you need evidence.
If creationists had evidence I'm sure we would have seen some by now...

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

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Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Jaf, posted 02-05-2014 10:11 PM Coyote has replied
 Message 25 by Jaf, posted 02-05-2014 10:21 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

Jaf
Member (Idle past 3694 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 01-30-2014


Message 19 of 114 (718267)
02-05-2014 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by New Cat's Eye
02-05-2014 9:14 PM


Imagine having to do th.e same thing with the bible when atheists misquote it. But thanks for going to thr trouble. I like quotes too, coz they are quotes. What do think he meant by savage races?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-05-2014 9:14 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Coyote, posted 02-05-2014 10:08 PM Jaf has replied
 Message 31 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-05-2014 10:59 PM Jaf has not replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 20 of 114 (718268)
02-05-2014 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Jaf
02-05-2014 10:02 PM


Savage races
What do think he meant by savage races?
"Savage" denotes a cultural condition.
It has nothing to do with race, intelligence or much of anything else.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Jaf, posted 02-05-2014 10:02 PM Jaf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Jaf, posted 02-05-2014 10:13 PM Coyote has replied

Jaf
Member (Idle past 3694 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 01-30-2014


Message 21 of 114 (718269)
02-05-2014 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Coyote
02-05-2014 9:25 PM


What did he mean by savage races, common,the man said he would rather be a baboon or a monkey than a savage, and I quoted him, it's funny I'm now being accused of interpreting it racially. Darwin referred to half the human race as savages, you can't defend that by attacking me for pointing out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Coyote, posted 02-05-2014 9:25 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Coyote, posted 02-05-2014 10:36 PM Jaf has replied
 Message 32 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-05-2014 11:13 PM Jaf has replied

Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 22 of 114 (718270)
02-05-2014 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Jaf
02-05-2014 8:24 PM


Re: .
jaf writes:
I typed it word for word one finger at a time On my ipad I will have you know. I did clean the screen afterwards.
Oh, well, there's no need for that. Just highlight your quote-mine, carefully avoiding any context that conflicts with your intended distortion, then copy, then click to your target and paste.
If your method requires no thought, why waste any energy, either?
I feel an itch of curiosity when I see creationists use the kind of methods you employ--e.g., defaming an intellectual opponent with distorted quote mines irrelevant to the intellectual conflict itself. Why do you expect that to work?
What would it working even mean? Say you persuade me that Darwin was a racist (he wasn't, not in the sense we use the word). Do you suppose I'll repudiate ideas my power of reason evaluates and accepts due to evidence?
Most of all, though, I wonder at a state of belief that combines the notion that one's kind was created supernaturally by a God, in His image, with the idea that what is required of them is to lie, defame and distort in His service.
You probably can't help me with that.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Jaf, posted 02-05-2014 8:24 PM Jaf has replied

Replies to this message:
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Jaf
Member (Idle past 3694 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 01-30-2014


Message 23 of 114 (718271)
02-05-2014 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Coyote
02-05-2014 10:08 PM


Re: Savage races
He meant aborigine people and black people. Not cultures

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Coyote, posted 02-05-2014 10:08 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
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Jaf
Member (Idle past 3694 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 01-30-2014


Message 24 of 114 (718272)
02-05-2014 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Omnivorous
02-05-2014 10:12 PM


Re: .
The quote is the quote, are you a savage by any chance? I can help you to see that your thoughts on God and his people does not disprove either exist.
Edited by Jaf, : No reason given.
Edited by Jaf, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Omnivorous, posted 02-05-2014 10:12 PM Omnivorous has not replied

Jaf
Member (Idle past 3694 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 01-30-2014


Message 25 of 114 (718273)
02-05-2014 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Coyote
02-05-2014 9:25 PM


What's with the off topic whining?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Coyote, posted 02-05-2014 9:25 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 26 of 114 (718277)
02-05-2014 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Jaf
02-05-2014 10:11 PM


More "savage"
What did he mean by savage races, common,the man said he would rather be a baboon or a monkey than a savage, and I quoted him, it's funny I'm now being accused of interpreting it racially. Darwin referred to half the human race as savages, you can't defend that by attacking me for pointing out.
In the post where I defined "savage" as a cultural condition I didn't refer to you at all.
But in a previous post I did attack you for your opening post which attempts to discredit the theory of evolution by discrediting Darwin himself. That's a typical creationist tactic relying on "appeal to authority" rather than evidence.
I note you haven't responded to that one.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Jaf, posted 02-05-2014 10:11 PM Jaf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Jaf, posted 02-05-2014 10:47 PM Coyote has replied
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 27 of 114 (718278)
02-05-2014 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Jaf
02-05-2014 10:13 PM


Re: Savage races
He meant aborigine people and black people. Not cultures
Can you document that?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Jaf, posted 02-05-2014 10:13 PM Jaf has seen this message but not replied

Jaf
Member (Idle past 3694 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 01-30-2014


Message 28 of 114 (718279)
02-05-2014 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Coyote
02-05-2014 10:36 PM


Re: More "savage"
If there was any evidence you and I wouldn't be here. Your still off topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Coyote, posted 02-05-2014 10:36 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Coyote, posted 02-05-2014 10:57 PM Jaf has replied

Jaf
Member (Idle past 3694 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 01-30-2014


Message 29 of 114 (718280)
02-05-2014 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Coyote
02-05-2014 10:36 PM


Re: More "savage"
Can you document your statement about what you "think" he meant by savage races? No you can't, so stay on topic and off being petty and attacking and annoying, are you a troll?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Coyote, posted 02-05-2014 10:36 PM Coyote has not replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 30 of 114 (718282)
02-05-2014 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Jaf
02-05-2014 10:47 PM


Re: More "savage"
If there was any evidence you and I wouldn't be here. Your still off topic.
If you mean evidence for the theory of evolution, you'd be wrong.
And I know something about that evidence. Fossil man and human osteology were half of my study for the Ph.D. exams in Anthropology some years back.
And I'll let the moderators determine who is on and off topic.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Jaf, posted 02-05-2014 10:47 PM Jaf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Jaf, posted 02-05-2014 11:40 PM Coyote has replied

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