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Member (Idle past 348 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Is there any such thing as an absolute? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
Phat writes: True communion allows a loss of self as the community becomes one. True selfishness would justify autonomy as a desirable trait. Does that make sense? Makes sense to me. But why would anyone want either of those?Both ideas as you describe them seem equally unpalatable to me. I do not want to lose myself into a community that becomes one. Where would my individuality go?I do not want to be autonomous. Who would I talk to? Maybe that makes me a bad person. I don't think so, though. I just think it makes me different from certain other people who do want one or the other. It seems, to me, that "paradise" would be a certain balance that included both aspects. Neither of which would be a focal point in any way. I don't see why either one would be likely to actually happen, either. In that context... I'm not really all that worried about it.
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ProtoTypical writes:
But it does mean that no observer can know what those absolute qualities are - and a group of observers can only approximate what those qualities are. The fact that a thing may look different to different observers does not mean that the thing does not have absolute qualities. If we have know way of knowing what the absolute qualities are what's the point of insisting that there "are" absolute qualities?
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
1.62985 writes:
Well, the choices I have are two hours on a computer that's older than you or one hour on a decent computer or no Internet access at all. "Free will" should give me at least one good choice, shouldn't it?
Hi Ringo, I suppose trumpeting ethereal elephants are forcing you by gun point to post that message against your will.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: Relative truth sets us relatively free. If there was absolute truth, would it set us absolutely free? What is absolute freedom? Perhaps the question: Would absolute freedom free us forGods foreknown purpose or would it free us from any interference by any entity--God or not--that we may fulfill our destiny our way? The God that I conceive of is far wiser than I am and thus I have no problem allowing His destiny and purpose to manifest through me. If another guy wanted to wing it entirely on his own, I would say go knock yourself out. One could argue, however, that everyone's destiny is a foreknown absolute--regardless how we arrive at that end.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
ringo writes: "Free will" should give me at least one good choice, shouldn't it? I suppose that would depend on your definition of "Free will." I think most people would agree that we don't have free will in the sense that we cannot choose to instantly transport ourselves to any point on the planet at will. The term is more generally thought to indicate that we are able to choose between the options that are available to us at will. ...not create whatever options we want. I would certainly agree, though... that your implication of being able to choose anything at all would be absolute free will.
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Would you rather have freedom "for" a tapeworm's purpose or freedom from a tapeworm?
Would absolute freedom free us forGods foreknown purpose or would it free us from any interference by any entity--God or not--that we may fulfill our destiny our way? Phat writes:
That's fine. Just don't pretend it's freedom. There's not much difference between freely giving up your freedom and having it forcibly taken away from you.
The God that I conceive of is far wiser than I am and thus I have no problem allowing His destiny and purpose to manifest through me.
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Stile writes:
My point is that a choice between a good option and a bad option is not free will.
The term is more generally thought to indicate that we are able to choose between the options that are available to us at will. ...not create whatever options we want.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: My point is that a choice between a good option and a bad option is not free will. How about a choice between a best option and a second best option? I know I know....who judges the value of the options? My answer? YOU DO!
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1503 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Well you are managing.
But getting back to choices. The universe seems to be probablistically determinate.But does that mean free will does not exist? We have the various rows of dominoes set before us.We can choose the row to knock down. But once the choice is made and set into motion, determinism takes over. We still choose que no?"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Yes indeed, which makes the choice subjective and relative.
I know I know....who judges the value of the options? My answer? YOU DO!
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
4.62983 writes:
Relative to the topic, as long as we don't know what the absolute outcome will be we only have a subjective, relative guess as to what we are actually choosing.
But once the choice is made and set into motion, determinism takes over.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
ringo writes: My point is that a choice between a good option and a bad option is not free will. I see. Then... because you say "free will is a farce (illiusion)"... are you then saying that all our choices are between good options and bad options?
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3978 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 7.3
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Stile writes: Then... because you say "free will is a farce (illiusion)"... are you then saying that all our choices are between good options and bad options? Speaking for myself and not ringo, I'd say choices are an illusion. Who chooses? An executive construct conditioned by its unique intersection of genetics and circumstance: time, place, culture, the particulars of family structure and the personalities of its members, nutrition, chance encounters with disease vectors and mentors...and the array of choices is equally conditioned and pared by all of the above as well as larger historical, geological and astronomical sets. So what part of all that is willed? How much sense does it make to say that this defined, determined construct of a creature, presented a limited set of stimuli, responds to one most strongly and thus "chooses" Coke over Pepsi? Free will should be made of sterner stuff. Perhaps when we are like gods we will discover it."If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: Perhaps we only even have the option of being subjective and relative due to Gods good graces. Yes indeed, which makes the choice subjective and relative. Complain about Him if you must...but you wouldn't even have that option were it not for Him.
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Stile writes:
I would say more like: all our choices are between good options and not-quite-so-good options. Since we wouldn't "choose" a bad option over a good option, it isn't really a choice, is it?
... are you then saying that all our choices are between good options and bad options?
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