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Author Topic:   Is there any such thing as an absolute?
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 76 of 109 (720275)
02-21-2014 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Phat
02-21-2014 10:28 AM


Re: Absolute by definition
Phat writes:
True communion allows a loss of self as the community becomes one. True selfishness would justify autonomy as a desirable trait. Does that make sense?
Makes sense to me.
But why would anyone want either of those?
Both ideas as you describe them seem equally unpalatable to me.
I do not want to lose myself into a community that becomes one. Where would my individuality go?
I do not want to be autonomous. Who would I talk to?
Maybe that makes me a bad person. I don't think so, though. I just think it makes me different from certain other people who do want one or the other. It seems, to me, that "paradise" would be a certain balance that included both aspects. Neither of which would be a focal point in any way.
I don't see why either one would be likely to actually happen, either. In that context... I'm not really all that worried about it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Phat, posted 02-21-2014 10:28 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 77 of 109 (720277)
02-21-2014 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Dogmafood
02-21-2014 9:20 AM


Re: Ice cream makes it better
ProtoTypical writes:
The fact that a thing may look different to different observers does not mean that the thing does not have absolute qualities.
But it does mean that no observer can know what those absolute qualities are - and a group of observers can only approximate what those qualities are.
If we have know way of knowing what the absolute qualities are what's the point of insisting that there "are" absolute qualities?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Dogmafood, posted 02-21-2014 9:20 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Dogmafood, posted 02-24-2014 6:32 AM ringo has replied
 Message 95 by Straggler, posted 02-24-2014 7:36 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 78 of 109 (720278)
02-21-2014 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by 1.61803
02-21-2014 9:50 AM


Re: Ice cream makes it better
1.62985 writes:
Hi Ringo, I suppose trumpeting ethereal elephants are forcing you by gun point to post that message against your will.
Well, the choices I have are two hours on a computer that's older than you or one hour on a decent computer or no Internet access at all. "Free will" should give me at least one good choice, shouldn't it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by 1.61803, posted 02-21-2014 9:50 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Stile, posted 02-21-2014 11:00 AM ringo has replied
 Message 84 by 1.61803, posted 02-21-2014 11:47 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 79 of 109 (720280)
02-21-2014 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by ringo
02-18-2014 11:06 AM


Re: Ice cream makes it better
ringo writes:
Relative truth sets us relatively free. If there was absolute truth, would it set us absolutely free? What is absolute freedom?
Perhaps the question: Would absolute freedom free us forGods foreknown purpose or would it free us from any interference by any entity--God or not--that we may fulfill our destiny our way?
The God that I conceive of is far wiser than I am and thus I have no problem allowing His destiny and purpose to manifest through me.
If another guy wanted to wing it entirely on his own, I would say go knock yourself out. One could argue, however, that everyone's destiny is a foreknown absolute--regardless how we arrive at that end.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by ringo, posted 02-18-2014 11:06 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by ringo, posted 02-21-2014 11:05 AM Phat has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 80 of 109 (720281)
02-21-2014 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by ringo
02-21-2014 10:49 AM


Absolute free will
ringo writes:
"Free will" should give me at least one good choice, shouldn't it?
I suppose that would depend on your definition of "Free will."
I think most people would agree that we don't have free will in the sense that we cannot choose to instantly transport ourselves to any point on the planet at will.
The term is more generally thought to indicate that we are able to choose between the options that are available to us at will. ...not create whatever options we want.
I would certainly agree, though... that your implication of being able to choose anything at all would be absolute free will.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by ringo, posted 02-21-2014 10:49 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by ringo, posted 02-21-2014 11:07 AM Stile has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 81 of 109 (720284)
02-21-2014 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Phat
02-21-2014 10:55 AM


Re: Ice cream makes it better
Phat writes:
Would absolute freedom free us forGods foreknown purpose or would it free us from any interference by any entity--God or not--that we may fulfill our destiny our way?
Would you rather have freedom "for" a tapeworm's purpose or freedom from a tapeworm?
Phat writes:
The God that I conceive of is far wiser than I am and thus I have no problem allowing His destiny and purpose to manifest through me.
That's fine. Just don't pretend it's freedom. There's not much difference between freely giving up your freedom and having it forcibly taken away from you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 02-21-2014 10:55 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 82 of 109 (720285)
02-21-2014 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Stile
02-21-2014 11:00 AM


Re: Absolute free will
Stile writes:
The term is more generally thought to indicate that we are able to choose between the options that are available to us at will. ...not create whatever options we want.
My point is that a choice between a good option and a bad option is not free will.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Stile, posted 02-21-2014 11:00 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 02-21-2014 11:38 AM ringo has replied
 Message 87 by Stile, posted 02-21-2014 12:24 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 83 of 109 (720290)
02-21-2014 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by ringo
02-21-2014 11:07 AM


Re: Absolute free will
ringo writes:
My point is that a choice between a good option and a bad option is not free will.
How about a choice between a best option and a second best option?
I know I know....who judges the value of the options?
My answer? YOU DO!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by ringo, posted 02-21-2014 11:07 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by ringo, posted 02-21-2014 11:51 AM Phat has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 84 of 109 (720291)
02-21-2014 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by ringo
02-21-2014 10:49 AM


Re: Ice cream makes it better
Well you are managing.
But getting back to choices.
The universe seems to be probablistically determinate.
But does that mean free will does not exist?
We have the various rows of dominoes set before us.
We can choose the row to knock down.
But once the choice is made and set into motion, determinism takes over.
We still choose que no?

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by ringo, posted 02-21-2014 10:49 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by ringo, posted 02-21-2014 11:55 AM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 85 of 109 (720294)
02-21-2014 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Phat
02-21-2014 11:38 AM


Re: Absolute free will
Phat writes:
I know I know....who judges the value of the options?
My answer? YOU DO!
Yes indeed, which makes the choice subjective and relative.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 02-21-2014 11:38 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Phat, posted 02-22-2014 10:40 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 86 of 109 (720296)
02-21-2014 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by 1.61803
02-21-2014 11:47 AM


Re: Ice cream makes it better
4.62983 writes:
But once the choice is made and set into motion, determinism takes over.
Relative to the topic, as long as we don't know what the absolute outcome will be we only have a subjective, relative guess as to what we are actually choosing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by 1.61803, posted 02-21-2014 11:47 AM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 87 of 109 (720302)
02-21-2014 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by ringo
02-21-2014 11:07 AM


Re: Absolute free will
ringo writes:
My point is that a choice between a good option and a bad option is not free will.
I see.
Then... because you say "free will is a farce (illiusion)"... are you then saying that all our choices are between good options and bad options?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by ringo, posted 02-21-2014 11:07 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Omnivorous, posted 02-21-2014 7:02 PM Stile has replied
 Message 90 by ringo, posted 02-22-2014 10:55 AM Stile has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


(2)
Message 88 of 109 (720343)
02-21-2014 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Stile
02-21-2014 12:24 PM


Re: Absolute free will
Stile writes:
Then... because you say "free will is a farce (illiusion)"... are you then saying that all our choices are between good options and bad options?
Speaking for myself and not ringo, I'd say choices are an illusion.
Who chooses? An executive construct conditioned by its unique intersection of genetics and circumstance: time, place, culture, the particulars of family structure and the personalities of its members, nutrition, chance encounters with disease vectors and mentors...and the array of choices is equally conditioned and pared by all of the above as well as larger historical, geological and astronomical sets.
So what part of all that is willed? How much sense does it make to say that this defined, determined construct of a creature, presented a limited set of stimuli, responds to one most strongly and thus "chooses" Coke over Pepsi?
Free will should be made of sterner stuff. Perhaps when we are like gods we will discover it.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Stile, posted 02-21-2014 12:24 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Stile, posted 02-24-2014 10:02 AM Omnivorous has not replied
 Message 97 by 1.61803, posted 02-24-2014 10:27 AM Omnivorous has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 89 of 109 (720369)
02-22-2014 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by ringo
02-21-2014 11:51 AM


Re: Absolute free will
ringo writes:
Yes indeed, which makes the choice subjective and relative.
Perhaps we only even have the option of being subjective and relative due to Gods good graces.
Complain about Him if you must...but you wouldn't even have that option were it not for Him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by ringo, posted 02-21-2014 11:51 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by ringo, posted 02-22-2014 10:58 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 90 of 109 (720372)
02-22-2014 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Stile
02-21-2014 12:24 PM


Re: Absolute free will
Stile writes:
... are you then saying that all our choices are between good options and bad options?
I would say more like: all our choices are between good options and not-quite-so-good options. Since we wouldn't "choose" a bad option over a good option, it isn't really a choice, is it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Stile, posted 02-21-2014 12:24 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Stile, posted 02-24-2014 10:45 AM ringo has replied

  
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