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Author Topic:   Is there any such thing as an absolute?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 61 of 109 (719805)
02-18-2014 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Stile
02-18-2014 11:07 AM


Re: Ice cream makes it better
In essence, are you suggesting that a personal decision to believe an absolute way is better than an edict or demand compelling you to do so?
Is it a human right to decide whether something is absolute or not in terms of belief?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Stile, posted 02-18-2014 11:07 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Stile, posted 02-18-2014 1:43 PM Phat has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 62 of 109 (719818)
02-18-2014 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Phat
02-16-2014 2:09 PM


Re: Reality and Religious Beliefs
Phat writes:
I believe that Gods reality is an unchangeable absolute, but due to the allowance of satan and alternate "reality" or perception we are allowed to make up opposites.
This of course was initially made possible by God having allowed free will.
Could very well be. Or not.
That's the thing... we seem to be at a disadvantage to ever know for sure.
If we can't know for sure... then it would seem that we cannot determine whether or not it actually is absolute.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Phat, posted 02-16-2014 2:09 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(2)
Message 63 of 109 (719826)
02-18-2014 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Phat
02-18-2014 11:41 AM


Re: Ice cream makes it better
Phat writes:
In essence, are you suggesting that a personal decision to believe an absolute way is better than an edict or demand compelling you to do so?
Here's an example:
Your house needs to be painted.
Who would you rather have paint it?
  1. Someone who paints houses because they love to paint houses.
  2. Someone who paints houses because their father is forcing them into the family business.
I take it you can see the difference?
I always think that a personal decision is more meaningful than following an order. Regardless of whether or not the way is absolute (whatever that would mean).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Phat, posted 02-18-2014 11:41 AM Phat has not replied

  
dadman
Member (Idle past 3662 days)
Posts: 45
From: wichita Kansas USA
Joined: 02-19-2014


Message 64 of 109 (720040)
02-19-2014 9:28 PM


Is there any such thing as an absolute?
absolutely not . . . lol
Edited by dadman, : No reason given.
Edited by AdminPhat, : removed spam

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 349 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 65 of 109 (720079)
02-20-2014 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by ringo
02-18-2014 11:06 AM


Re: Ice cream makes it better
If there was absoulte truth, would it set us absolutely free?
I would say that knowing any truth allows you to be freer than you would be if you did not know it.
What is absolute freedom?
I suppose that absolute freedom would equate to god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by ringo, posted 02-18-2014 11:06 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by ringo, posted 02-20-2014 10:57 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 349 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 66 of 109 (720080)
02-20-2014 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Stile
02-18-2014 11:07 AM


Re: Ice cream makes it better
But there are many people where knowing certain experiences is not better than not knowing them.
There is no question that we may wish that the truth were sometimes different but this is separate from wanting to know what the truth is. I have heard that if ignorance is bliss then it is foolish to be wise but I don't buy it.
Or... let's say you have the opportunity to know what all insects around the world are thinking at all times. Would you want such a gift?
We are not talking about a Johnny Neumonic overload where your nose starts bleeding and your brains turn to mush. We are talking about truths that we can arrive at and comprehend.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Stile, posted 02-18-2014 11:07 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Stile, posted 02-20-2014 9:29 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 67 of 109 (720086)
02-20-2014 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Dogmafood
02-20-2014 7:25 AM


Re: Ice cream makes it better
ProtoTypical writes:
We are talking about truths that we can arrive at and comprehend.
Right, and then I agree.
If we're going to attempt to make absolute statements... the scope they encompass needs to be clarified.
"It is always better to know than not to know" is too broad and subjective (what's "better"?) to be an absolute statement.
"It is better to know about truths we can arrive at and comprehend rather than to be ignorant of them in the context of understanding our freedom."
...is a statement that's getting much closer to being something I'd be comfortable with calling "absolute."
I'm not saying your idea is wrong, I'm just saying that qualification/clarification is important if we're going to be saying a certain statement is "absolute."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Dogmafood, posted 02-20-2014 7:25 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Dogmafood, posted 02-24-2014 6:29 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 68 of 109 (720102)
02-20-2014 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Dogmafood
02-20-2014 7:22 AM


Re: Ice cream makes it better
ProtoTypical writes:
ringo writes:
If there was absoulte truth, would it set us absolutely free?
I would say that knowing any truth allows you to be freer than you would be if you did not know it.
So both truth and freedom are relative.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Dogmafood, posted 02-20-2014 7:22 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Phat, posted 02-20-2014 11:02 AM ringo has replied
 Message 73 by Dogmafood, posted 02-21-2014 9:20 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 69 of 109 (720105)
02-20-2014 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by ringo
02-20-2014 10:57 AM


Re: Ice cream makes it better
ringo writes:
So both truth and freedom are relative.
Oh oh...sounds like I hear another protest against being relatively unable to proclaim ones own absolute hence rendering true freewill a farce.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by ringo, posted 02-20-2014 10:57 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by ringo, posted 02-20-2014 11:21 AM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 70 of 109 (720112)
02-20-2014 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Phat
02-20-2014 11:02 AM


Re: Ice cream makes it better
Phat writes:
Oh oh...sounds like I hear another protest against being relatively unable to proclaim ones own absolute hence rendering true freewill a farce.
There's no need to "render" free will a farce; it is a farce.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Phat, posted 02-20-2014 11:02 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Phat, posted 02-20-2014 11:30 AM ringo has replied
 Message 74 by 1.61803, posted 02-21-2014 9:50 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 71 of 109 (720115)
02-20-2014 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by ringo
02-20-2014 11:21 AM


Should God Exist
If God exists and is the Creator of all things seen and unseen,
should He allow humans the right to be autonomous in regards to our beliefs and philosophy?
Why or why not?
As far as science goes, everything is tentative anyway...awaiting further information.
We could say that certain things are absolutes...such as the laws of gravity...assuming we allow for new absolutes to erase old absolutes as our knowledge increases.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by ringo, posted 02-20-2014 11:21 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by ringo, posted 02-20-2014 11:37 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 72 of 109 (720120)
02-20-2014 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Phat
02-20-2014 11:30 AM


Re: Should God Exist
Phat writes:
If God exists and is the Creator of all things seen and unseen, should He allow humans the right to be autonomous in regards to our beliefs and philosophy?
The question isn't "should" He but "would" He.
Why would a God not want us to be autonomous? What effect could our autonomy have on Him? Why would He worry about our autonomy and not the tapeworms'?
Phat writes:
We could say that certain things are absolutes...such as the laws of gravity...assuming we allow for new absolutes to erase old absolutes as our knowledge increases.
Anything that can be erased or replaced is not absolute.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Phat, posted 02-20-2014 11:30 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 349 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 73 of 109 (720255)
02-21-2014 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by ringo
02-20-2014 10:57 AM


Re: Ice cream makes it better
So both truth and freedom are relative.
I thought that everything was relative to the observer. That's why I made the point in the OP that if 'absolute' is something that is not relative to anything else then it is impossible by definition.
The fact that a thing may look different to different observers does not mean that the thing does not have absolute qualities.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by ringo, posted 02-20-2014 10:57 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Phat, posted 02-21-2014 10:28 AM Dogmafood has replied
 Message 77 by ringo, posted 02-21-2014 10:46 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 74 of 109 (720266)
02-21-2014 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by ringo
02-20-2014 11:21 AM


Re: Ice cream makes it better
ringo writes:
There's no need to "render" free will a farce; it is a farce.
Hi Ringo, I suppose trumpeting ethereal elephants are forcing you by gun point to post that message against your will.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by ringo, posted 02-20-2014 11:21 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by ringo, posted 02-21-2014 10:49 AM 1.61803 has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 75 of 109 (720274)
02-21-2014 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Dogmafood
02-21-2014 9:20 AM


Absolute by definition
protoTypical writes:
That's why I made the point in the OP that if 'absolute' is something that is not relative to anything else then it is impossible by definition.
I would point out that this is a good reason why God would have hypothetically allowed an alternate reality....if for nothing else than to showcase His absoluteness. This alternate reality can be described as Satan, but it can also be described as "self". True communion allows a loss of self as the community becomes one. True selfishness would justify autonomy as a desirable trait. Does that make sense?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Dogmafood, posted 02-21-2014 9:20 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Stile, posted 02-21-2014 10:37 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 93 by Dogmafood, posted 02-24-2014 6:31 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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