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Author Topic:   Was Jesus' crucifixion all part of God's plan?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 121 of 175 (714161)
12-20-2013 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Diomedes
12-19-2013 4:08 PM


Re: From the Wookiepedia
Diomedes writes:
What is interesting, from a Star Wars canon standpoint, is that interpretations of the light side and dark side differ. Some consider both to be two separate energy sources, with distinct properties. Others consider there to be one ubiquitous 'Force' and how one manifests their power ultimately denotes whether they are 'touched' by the light or dark side.
I always figured "The Force" to be somewhat Yin/Yang Dualism.

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 Message 112 by Diomedes, posted 12-19-2013 4:08 PM Diomedes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Diomedes, posted 12-20-2013 11:10 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(1)
Message 122 of 175 (714163)
12-20-2013 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Phat
12-20-2013 10:50 AM


Re: From the Wookiepedia
what is she on the good side now?
LOL well not really and not really evil, more like revan. I think she knew from him that the new sith empire is coming to wage war on the republic, so she trains you the only one capable of defeating darth nilius who feeds on the force of others and he is real hungry devouring planets at a time, the force technically does not flow trough you but between you and your companions you are a wound in the force. So she lures him to a half dead planet technically sacrificing it to him but also brings you so you can kill him. Then you go to malechore 5 the place where these sith where "borne" as where you to kill the other guy and her.
Its hard to explain basically it all has to do with malechor 5 where millions died in a moment do to some gravity thingy, you survive by cutting yourself off form the force so you dont feal their pain, the totally fucked up guy survives by becomming something like unkillable able to heal himself even mortal wounds, and the force eating guy gets force eating powers.
But this also goes back to revan that went to defend the republic from the mandelorian threat even though the jedi council said to wait. He won then turned on the republic we later find out why he knew the sith empire was comming so he was taking over the republic to make it strong. But his aprentice turned on him and some jedi where able to capture him/her and whipe his mind then its up to more or les you the player to decide if you go dark or light while fighting to stop malak.
Those are Knights of the old republic and knights of the old republic 2 the sith lords pc games old ones.
The new one is a mmorpg SWTOR, Star wars the old republic set 300 years later when the sith empire arrives.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

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Diomedes
Member
Posts: 995
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


Message 123 of 175 (714165)
12-20-2013 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Phat
12-20-2013 10:58 AM


Re: From the Wookiepedia
I always figured "The Force" to be somewhat Yin/Yang Dualism.
That is actually correct, at least from the standpoint of where Lucas said he got his inspiration for The Force. Most of it came from some of his research into Buddhism and Taoism.

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 124 of 175 (714188)
12-20-2013 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Phat
12-19-2013 1:05 PM


Re: Grace as a necessity
Phat writes:
Has humanity lost the ability to be good?
Of course not. The issue is what causes us to be good. You say it's dogmatic obedience. Paul and I say it's conscience. Conscience is what we gained with the so-called "Fall".
Phat writes:
If what you believe is true, perhaps you additionally believe that Jesus need not shepherd you through life...you can find your own way, thank you very much.
A shepherd doesn't lead every sheep. The sheep follow each other in the direction the shepherd is going.
And don't forget that there were sheep before there were shepherds. The sheep can get along without the shepherd. He only leads them for his own purposes.
Phat writes:
In other words, we save ourselves(or redeem ourselves) entirely through our own actions?
That's what Jesus said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 12-19-2013 1:05 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Phat, posted 12-20-2013 12:19 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 125 of 175 (714190)
12-20-2013 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by ringo
12-20-2013 12:12 PM


Re: Grace as a necessity
w
ringo writes:
The issue is what causes us to be good. You say it's dogmatic obedience. Paul and I say it's conscience. Conscience is what we gained with the so-called "Fall".
Just because we are aware of what good and bad mean and that we are conscious of it does not mean that we sheep know what we are doing...because if you observe this world and read the news you will see sheep behaving very badly. Oh sure there are good sheep...but I'd say that the Shepherds purpose is better than anything that we can come up with on our own. Its the church that has driven people away from Jesus.. sheep who would be shepherds.
Edited by Phat, : spelling bee

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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 126 of 175 (714191)
12-20-2013 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Phat
12-20-2013 12:19 PM


Re: Grace as a necessity
Phat writes:
...but I'd say that the Shepherds purpose is better than anything that we can come up with on our own.
The shepherd's purpose is to shear you and eat your children.
Phat writes:
... if you observe this world and read the news you will see sheep behaving very badly.
Those are goats.

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 127 of 175 (714192)
12-20-2013 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by jar
12-05-2013 9:27 AM


Re: Jesus: His Life or His Death,burial, and resurrection?
It cheapens the message that you prefer. I swear you must have had a Jewish Mother.
You have this idea that you are responsible for everything. The whole idea of Jesus is that He took on the responsibility...much as you would if you were at a fish fry and they ran out of fish. Humans do not have the ability to fix everything ourselves.
And if you admit that Jesus helping us turns it into a whats-in-it-for-me game, you are essentially admitting and exposing human nature for the imperfect fraud that it is. Which is, of course my point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by jar, posted 12-05-2013 9:27 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by jar, posted 12-20-2013 12:37 PM Phat has replied
 Message 129 by ringo, posted 12-20-2013 12:40 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 128 of 175 (714193)
12-20-2013 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Phat
12-20-2013 12:30 PM


Re: Jesus: His Life or His Death,burial, and resurrection?
It cheapens the message and Jesus not only had a Jewish mother, he was a Jew.
You have this idea that you are responsible for everything. The whole idea of Jesus is that He took on the responsibility...much as you would if you were at a fish fry and they ran out of fish. Humans do not have the ability to fix everything ourselves.
No, I am responsible for what I do. The idea that Jesus took on the responsibility is simply a modern cop out, a cheap caricature of Jesus message. Human do not have the ability to fix everything but we do have the responsibility, capability and charge to try to fix everything; and only we will ever fix anything.
And if you admit that Jesus helping us turns it into a whats-in-it-for-me game, you are essentially admitting and exposing human nature for the imperfect fraud that it is. Which is, of course my point.
No, again you misrepresent what I say. I say that folk that believe Jesus will fix anything at all are simply trying to justify their own failure to even try to fix anything and that it is a really sad and pitiful position that can only lead to things not getting fixed.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Phat, posted 12-20-2013 12:30 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Phat, posted 12-20-2013 12:45 PM jar has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 129 of 175 (714194)
12-20-2013 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Phat
12-20-2013 12:30 PM


Re: Jesus: His Life or His Death,burial, and resurrection?
Phat writes:
The whole idea of Jesus is that He took on the responsibility...
Jesus became human to demonstrate that it is possible for humans to do it themselves. Even if we do it imperfectly, so did He.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Phat, posted 12-20-2013 12:30 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Phat, posted 12-20-2013 12:48 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 130 of 175 (714196)
12-20-2013 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by jar
12-20-2013 12:37 PM


Re: Jesus: His Life or His Death,burial, and resurrection?
I say that folk that believe Jesus will fix anything at all are simply trying to justify their own failure to even try to fix anything and that it is a really sad and pitiful position that can only lead to things not getting fixed.
Not necessarily. I try and do my best and fail often. I ask for forgiveness and the strength and wisdom to move on. I am not so vain as to believe that "only humans will ever do anything". (Naive too)
Seems you never believed in the Spirit because you were too busy asking "what the hell that mean't"...too trapped in your own logic and reason to consider the Spirit to be part of reality.
Nicene Creed:
"I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. "
It is never cheap to ask for help nor to accept it. You have too much of that Eastern Prep School machismo do-it-yourself attitude.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by jar, posted 12-20-2013 12:37 PM jar has replied

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 Message 132 by jar, posted 12-20-2013 1:00 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 131 of 175 (714197)
12-20-2013 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by ringo
12-20-2013 12:40 PM


Re: Jesus: His Life or His Death,burial, and resurrection?
Jesus became human to demonstrate that it is possible for humans to do it themselves.
It may have been true that He preached this message to His own Jewish Disciples. They had no empowerment nor grace...for He had not yet died and risen.
He even predicted that Peter would fail.
Even if we do it imperfectly, so did He.
Where did He do it imperfectly? The only reason you guys believe He did it imperfectly is because you do not recognize Him as God. You see only a human.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by ringo, posted 12-20-2013 12:40 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Theodoric, posted 12-20-2013 2:18 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 134 by ringo, posted 12-21-2013 10:43 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 132 of 175 (714199)
12-20-2013 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Phat
12-20-2013 12:45 PM


Re: Jesus: His Life or His Death,burial, and resurrection?
Not necessarily. I try and do my best and fail often. I ask for forgiveness and the strength and wisdom to move on. I am not so vain as to believe that "only humans will ever do anything". (Naive too)
Can you give an example of the Holy Spirit ever doing anything except maybe knocking up a little girl?
Seems you never believed in the Spirit because you were too busy asking "what the hell that mean't"...too trapped in your own logic and reason to consider the Spirit to be part of reality.
Apples are part of reality and so when someone asks me "What the hell does apple mean?" I can show them an apple.
It is never cheap to ask for help nor to accept it. You have too much of that Eastern Prep School machismo do-it-yourself attitude.
I never said we should not ask for or accept help. But can you point to an example of supernatural entities actually helping fix anything?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Phat, posted 12-20-2013 12:45 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 133 of 175 (714209)
12-20-2013 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Phat
12-20-2013 12:48 PM


Re: Jesus: His Life or His Death,burial, and resurrection?
The only reason you guys believe He did it imperfectly is because you do not recognize Him as God. You see only a human.
That would be a pretty poor and incompetent excuse for a god.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Phat, posted 12-20-2013 12:48 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 134 of 175 (714305)
12-21-2013 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by Phat
12-20-2013 12:48 PM


Re: Jesus: His Life or His Death,burial, and resurrection?
Phat writes:
It may have been true that He preached this message to His own Jewish Disciples. They had no empowerment nor grace...for He had not yet died and risen.
quote:
Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
We have been empowered right from the start.
Phat writes:
The only reason you guys believe He did it imperfectly is because you do not recognize Him as God.
I believe He did it imperfectly because the Bible says so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Phat, posted 12-20-2013 12:48 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Phat, posted 12-22-2013 10:55 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 135 of 175 (714411)
12-22-2013 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by ringo
12-21-2013 10:43 AM


Re: Jesus: His Life or His Death,burial, and resurrection?
Its also a threat to warn someone that if they don't do well they will fail. I prefer the current dispensation of grace. Yes, we should try and do our best. But we will fail. And God does not count failure against us any more.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by ringo, posted 12-21-2013 10:43 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by ringo, posted 12-22-2013 2:05 PM Phat has replied

  
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