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Author Topic:   Why "YEC"/Fundamentalist Creationism is BAD for America
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1536 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 30 of 238 (711214)
11-15-2013 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by RAZD
11-15-2013 8:21 PM


Texas Creationism: Big Shootout Next Week
The Sensuous Curmudgeon
One never knows what creationists will do next, because they don’t understand that their science has been rendered as obsolete as astrology. Due to their ignorance and fanaticism a wicked combination they just keep on coming, like a horde of brain-devouring zombies in some stupid movie. But the current phase of their activism in Texas may be approaching an end.
We haven’t been paying much attention to Texas lately. It’s not the same since Don McLeroy, the creationist dentist, lost his re-election bid to remain on the Texas State Board of Education. The last time we wrote about the situation was a couple of months ago: The Great Texas Textbook Hearing. Now we have to start watching again.
A long and very informative article appeared in yesterday’s Dallas Observer. It’s worth reading: Creationists’ Last Stand at the State Board of Education. The National Center for Science Education has a good summary here: Creationism’s last stand in Texas?
More

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by RAZD, posted 11-15-2013 8:21 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by RAZD, posted 11-15-2013 10:47 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1536 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 37 of 238 (711282)
11-16-2013 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by marc9000
11-16-2013 7:53 PM


Shouldn't education be about teaching students how to think, not what to think? By teaching them a broad spectrum of an issue, even the controversial ones?
The problem with this is that religion does just the opposite.
Religion does not want people who think, it wants people who believe without the need for evidence. Religion requires people who will accept being told what to think.
Go into any fundamentalist church and bring up anything that is not accepted dogma and see what kind of reception you get. (In the old days, this would have got you burned at the stake!)

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by marc9000, posted 11-16-2013 7:53 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by marc9000, posted 11-16-2013 8:30 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1536 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 44 of 238 (711290)
11-16-2013 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by RAZD
11-16-2013 9:14 PM


Re: Neil
Is that real or a Poe?
It's pretty tough to tell nowdays.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by RAZD, posted 11-16-2013 9:14 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-16-2013 9:53 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1536 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 58 of 238 (711480)
11-19-2013 11:53 AM


Here's a nice blog from The Sensuous Curmudgeon that deals with efforts by the Discovery Institute to spread their brand of creationism under the guise of science:
What is the Wedge Document?
None of this will be new to our regular readers. Big chunks of it come from our earlier posts, but we’re putting it all into one convenient place this post so we’ll be able to link to it from now on. Besides, creationists are always recycling their oldies, so they shouldn’t mind if we do it too.
The Wedge Document (sometimes called the Wedge Strategy) was drafted in 1998. It’s the founding manifesto of the Discovery Institute they’re described in the Cast of Characters section of our Intro page. Here’s a link to the Wikipedia article which describes it: Wedge strategy. You can read the actual document at the NCSE website: The Wedge Document. Here’s a scan of the original: The Wedge. It’s a pdf document which begins with a graphic of Michelangelo’s God creating Adam.
[links in the original]
Lots more

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1536 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 88 of 238 (718483)
02-06-2014 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Jaf
02-06-2014 9:33 PM


Ape-tooth monkeys
I'm of course terribly sorry for you and your offspring for resembling monkeys so closely, I can see why you hold on so steadfastly to the wild lunacy that you are in fact an ape.
Actually, we are most closely related to apes, particularly one species of chimpanzee. Monkeys are a very distinct group.
In our ancestry, to get to monkeys you have to go back some 15 million years. And even then, while our ancestors resembled monkeys they had the dentition of apes.
I hope this helps to clarify things for you.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Jaf, posted 02-06-2014 9:33 PM Jaf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Jaf, posted 02-06-2014 10:37 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1536 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 90 of 238 (718488)
02-06-2014 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Jaf
02-06-2014 10:37 PM


Re: Ape-tooth monkeys
I'm not closely related to any apes, you may wish to believe you are.
You just have to look at the evidence. Have you ever done so?
I remember my first osteology class. We studied each bone in the human body, both as whole bones and often as fragments. Most of us got to the point where we could identify the wrist or foot bones by feel behind our backs, and determine which bone and whether it was left or right.
Then near the end of the class the professor brought out the chimp, gorilla and monkey bones. We were amazed that we could identify every one, even the little bones inside the face!
Now, how do you explain that?
(Oh, and explain the similarities in the genome while you're at it.)

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Jaf, posted 02-06-2014 10:37 PM Jaf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Jaf, posted 02-07-2014 6:36 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1536 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 117 of 238 (718653)
02-08-2014 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Jaf
02-07-2014 6:36 PM


Re: Ape-tooth monkeys
How do I explain that bones are similar in species? Lol, we'll we know how you explain it and it's patently ridiculous
You didn't provide an answer to my post.
Why are the bones so strikingly similar among all the primates?
And please provide some detail to your answer. This is a Science Forum, so supporting one's position with evidence is appropriate.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Jaf, posted 02-07-2014 6:36 PM Jaf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 1:18 AM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1536 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 126 of 238 (718680)
02-08-2014 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by Jaf
02-08-2014 1:18 AM


Re: Ape-tooth monkeys
You still have not addressed my message about primate skeletons.
Why are skeletons among all the primates so similar, such that when you learn the skeletal anatomy of one you know them all?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 1:18 AM Jaf has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1536 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(3)
Message 139 of 238 (718722)
02-08-2014 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Jaf
02-08-2014 5:01 PM


You're not doing so well...
I have reviewed the 26 posts you made in this thread and you have yet to make a coherent argument or actually engage in debate.
Your posts consist of one-liners characterized by insults and unsupported claims, generally followed by more insults.
You are becoming the poster-child for the thread's topic, demonstrating Why "YEC" Creationism is BAD for America.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 5:01 PM Jaf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 5:21 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1536 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 142 of 238 (718725)
02-08-2014 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Jaf
02-08-2014 5:21 PM


Re: You're not doing so well...
What would you do with out me?
I don't know, but I'd be willing to try it and see...

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 5:21 PM Jaf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 5:35 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1536 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 147 of 238 (718731)
02-08-2014 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Jaf
02-08-2014 5:35 PM


Re: You're not doing so well...
You have yet to present an argument in favor of your beliefs.
All we've seen so far is sarcasm and insults.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 5:35 PM Jaf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 5:50 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1536 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 150 of 238 (718743)
02-08-2014 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Jaf
02-08-2014 5:50 PM


Re: You're not doing so well...
There are specific rules to setting up threads here, mostly to deep the topics tightly focused.
Why don't you try starting a thread with something like "I'm a creationist and this is what I believe..." as the title, then one particular topic following.
Present your specific belief and your argument for it, and suggest which forum it should be placed in.
I bet you'll get it promoted very quickly.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 5:50 PM Jaf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 6:46 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1536 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 152 of 238 (718757)
02-08-2014 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Jaf
02-08-2014 6:46 PM


Re: You're not doing so well...
So the forum is evolution verses creation, and you need me to explain what is meant by creation and what I believe it to be in order to get a thread up here, wow.
Pick whatever topic you want, but just follow the rules and you threads will probably get promoted quickly.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 6:46 PM Jaf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 6:59 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1536 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 154 of 238 (718764)
02-08-2014 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Jaf
02-08-2014 6:59 PM


Re: You're not doing so well...
I tend to avoid the bible-based threads.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 6:59 PM Jaf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 7:19 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1536 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 166 of 238 (718809)
02-08-2014 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Jaf
02-08-2014 10:49 PM


Re: You're not doing so well...
I understand how you would like me to behave but the undertone of many responses is very subjective and non scientific and a personal attack.
You came here with a chip on your shoulder and didn't follow our rules.
What kind of welcome did you expect?
If you had been here a while you would know that the moderators bend over backwards for creationists, and they are allowed behavior that would get any of the rest of us suspended for a while.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 10:49 PM Jaf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 11:28 PM Coyote has not replied

  
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