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Author Topic:   I don't believe in God, I believe in Gravity
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9460
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.7


(4)
Message 631 of 693 (711857)
11-23-2013 4:44 AM
Reply to: Message 630 by Jon
11-22-2013 10:22 PM


Re: The Alien Done It
I think you and others here are simply having a semantic argument for the sake of it; tying yourself in knots by torturing words and meanings and avoiding some simple facts.
I don't believe any of you - yourself, Az and Jar - would say that the armless man scenario was not a miraculous/supernatural event (and yes, the words do have the same meaning in normal use) if it actually happened in the way I described.
It's ludicrously easy to invent hypotheticals where the only possible rational conclusion is supernatural intervention. The only problem here is that the supernatural doesn't exist so we're dealing with a description of the impossible and the absurd.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 630 by Jon, posted 11-22-2013 10:22 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 632 by jar, posted 11-23-2013 8:32 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 635 by Jon, posted 11-23-2013 11:33 AM Tangle has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 360 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 632 of 693 (711861)
11-23-2013 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 631 by Tangle
11-23-2013 4:44 AM


Re: The Alien Done It
I don't believe any of you - yourself, Az and Jar - would say that the armless man scenario was not a miraculous/supernatural event (and yes, the words do have the same meaning in normal use) if it actually happened in the way I described.
What you believe is of course irrelevant and unrelated to fact or truth and you continue to mistake what I at least would say.
I would not see what you described as evidence of the supernatural and a most might use the term miraculous in the colloquial sense similar to "The pesto I fixed for dinner last night was miraculous."
It's ludicrously easy to invent hypotheticals where the only possible rational conclusion is supernatural intervention. The only problem here is that the supernatural doesn't exist so we're dealing with a description of the impossible and the absurd.
I agree making sh9it up is ludicrously easy but I disagree with almost all of the rest of that sentence and fully with the last sentence.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 631 by Tangle, posted 11-23-2013 4:44 AM Tangle has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 378 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 633 of 693 (711867)
11-23-2013 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 622 by Straggler
11-22-2013 2:43 PM


Re: What happened to methodological naturalism?
Straggler writes:
Show me what I can know.
You believe that your wife or girlfriend will come home today. You can "predict" that she will, based on past behaviour but you know that people do fail to come home; there is a finite probability that she will not. You can't know the future; you can only believe in it.
You can know to some level of confidence what you can observe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 622 by Straggler, posted 11-22-2013 2:43 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 675 by Straggler, posted 11-27-2013 1:31 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 378 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 634 of 693 (711868)
11-23-2013 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 628 by Tangle
11-22-2013 6:46 PM


Re: The Alien Done It
Tangle writes:
As the supernatural doesn't exist, the ONLY way they can be discussed is hypothetically.
You remind me of ICANT talking about the existence of existence. (What colour is colour?)
I would agree with you that the supernatural doesn't "exist" but I wouldn't say that nothing could be supernatural.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 628 by Tangle, posted 11-22-2013 6:46 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 636 by Tangle, posted 11-23-2013 1:51 PM ringo has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 635 of 693 (711872)
11-23-2013 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 631 by Tangle
11-23-2013 4:44 AM


Re: The Alien Done It
I don't believe any of you - yourself, Az and Jar - would say that the armless man scenario was not a miraculous/supernatural event (and yes, the words do have the same meaning in normal use) if it actually happened in the way I described.
No. It would simply be another thing happening in the observable universe for which we had yet to find an explanation.
Such has been the history of science.
On a side note, you might be able to convince someone if you would be willing to offer up a way to distinguish the natural from the supernatural.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 631 by Tangle, posted 11-23-2013 4:44 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 637 by Tangle, posted 11-23-2013 2:03 PM Jon has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9460
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 636 of 693 (711877)
11-23-2013 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 634 by ringo
11-23-2013 10:47 AM


Re: The Alien Done It
Ringo writes:
You remind me of ICANT talking about the existence of existence. (What colour is colour?) I would agree with you that the supernatural doesn't "exist" but I wouldn't say that nothing could be supernatural.
Well anyone can say anything about this stuff because there's no evidence for any of it - and I'm certainly not interested in pseudo-philosophising.
I'm mildly interested in why people here can't accept a hypothetical example of an obvious miracle though.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 634 by ringo, posted 11-23-2013 10:47 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 645 by ringo, posted 11-24-2013 1:16 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9460
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 637 of 693 (711878)
11-23-2013 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 635 by Jon
11-23-2013 11:33 AM


Re: The Alien Done It
Jon writes:
No. It would simply be another thing happening in the observable universe for which we had yet to find an explanation.
Such has been the history of science.
It absolutely wouldn't be. We know how cells replicate and differentiate. We know that limbs do not spontaneously and immediately regenerate. It wouldn't just be something we don't know about yet, it would be something we know enough about to know that it couldn't possibly happen.
But why worry about only limbs. Let's have a man with a severed head walk around normally for a month - or anything else you can think of that we KNOW is impossible.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 635 by Jon, posted 11-23-2013 11:33 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 638 by Jon, posted 11-23-2013 2:33 PM Tangle has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 638 of 693 (711879)
11-23-2013 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 637 by Tangle
11-23-2013 2:03 PM


Re: The Alien Done It
We know how cells replicate and differentiate. We know that limbs do not spontaneously and immediately regenerate.
Well... that's what we used to know... until we saw a limb regrow instantaneously before our eyes.
It wouldn't just be something we don't know about yet, it would be something we know enough about to know that it couldn't possibly happen.
Except that it happened. So obviously something's wrong with our understanding of the way the world works if it rules as impossible those things which clearly take place.
But why worry about only limbs. Let's have a man with a severed head walk around normally for a month - or anything else you can think of that we KNOW is impossible.
Why not revise our scientific theories to account for the new observations?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 637 by Tangle, posted 11-23-2013 2:03 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 639 by Tangle, posted 11-23-2013 2:44 PM Jon has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9460
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 639 of 693 (711880)
11-23-2013 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 638 by Jon
11-23-2013 2:33 PM


Re: The Alien Done It
I suppose there's nothing too stupidly off-planet for a true pedant.
Look we KNOW that a man with a severed head can not walk around as normal for a month. You know it and science knows it. It breaks god knows how many medical certainties that it's not open to sane debate.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 638 by Jon, posted 11-23-2013 2:33 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 640 by Jon, posted 11-24-2013 12:28 AM Tangle has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 640 of 693 (711898)
11-24-2013 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 639 by Tangle
11-23-2013 2:44 PM


Re: The Alien Done It
Look we KNOW that a man with a severed head can not walk around as normal for a month. You know it and science knows it. It breaks god knows how many medical certainties that it's not open to sane debate.
Yet there it happens. Before our eyes.
You know that it can't.
I saw that it did.
What now?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 639 by Tangle, posted 11-23-2013 2:44 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 641 by AZPaul3, posted 11-24-2013 2:52 AM Jon has not replied
 Message 642 by Tangle, posted 11-24-2013 3:18 AM Jon has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8430
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


(2)
Message 641 of 693 (711905)
11-24-2013 2:52 AM
Reply to: Message 640 by Jon
11-24-2013 12:28 AM


Re: The Alien Done It
Look we KNOW that a man with a severed head can not walk around as normal for a month. You know it and science knows it. It breaks god knows how many medical certainties that it's not open to sane debate.
Yet there it happens. Before our eyes.
You know that it can't.
I saw that it did.
What now?
We dance!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 640 by Jon, posted 11-24-2013 12:28 AM Jon has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9460
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.7


(1)
Message 642 of 693 (711906)
11-24-2013 3:18 AM
Reply to: Message 640 by Jon
11-24-2013 12:28 AM


Re: The Alien Done It
Jon writes:
What now?
Well, so long as it's not only you and the headless guy has stuck around long enough for science to have a good enough look and declare it real, then we re- think everything we thought we knew about everything.
Or dance, whichever you prefer.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 640 by Jon, posted 11-24-2013 12:28 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 643 by jar, posted 11-24-2013 9:09 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 649 by Jon, posted 11-24-2013 4:55 PM Tangle has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 360 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 643 of 693 (711914)
11-24-2013 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 642 by Tangle
11-24-2013 3:18 AM


Re: The Alien Done It
Well, so long as it's not only you and the headless guy has stuck around long enough for science to have a good enough look and declare it real, then we re- think everything we thought we knew about everything.
Perhaps not everything but that is the best step. Put it in the unknown/unexplained folder and work on it. Tagging it as supernatural does nothing.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 642 by Tangle, posted 11-24-2013 3:18 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 647 by Tangle, posted 11-24-2013 3:03 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18128
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 644 of 693 (711924)
11-24-2013 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 618 by Straggler
11-22-2013 12:06 PM


Re: Predictions
You are saying that your would "test" God once He was proven, and yet you are confidant that your Deity of choice---science--will forever insulate you from having to be accountable.
As a believer, I dont like being accountable either...its that inner nature of mine that wants to be "in control" and independent.
I suppose this post will get another negative rantfrom Theodoric...who claims I know nothing about how atheists think.
I can never challenge him, however, since he and others like you refuse to even care about why I think the way I do. God bless all of you anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 618 by Straggler, posted 11-22-2013 12:06 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 676 by Straggler, posted 11-27-2013 1:44 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 378 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 645 of 693 (711929)
11-24-2013 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 636 by Tangle
11-23-2013 1:51 PM


Re: The Alien Done It
Tangle writes:
Well anyone can say anything about this stuff because there's no evidence for any of it - and I'm certainly not interested in pseudo-philosophising.
What's the difference between "pseudo-philosophising" and real philosophising? If real philosphising requires evidence, how does it differ from science?
Tangle writes:
I'm mildly interested in why people here can't accept a hypothetical example of an obvious miracle though.
"Obvious miracle" is an oxymoron. If it's obviously a miracle then it's neither obvious nor a miracle.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 636 by Tangle, posted 11-23-2013 1:51 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 646 by Tangle, posted 11-24-2013 2:39 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
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