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Author Topic:   Isaiah 53 speaks about ISRAEL, and not about the messiah.
ringo
Member
Posts: 20020
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 151 of 174 (810370)
05-28-2017 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Davidjay
05-27-2017 7:25 PM


Re: Jacob was a 'trickster'
Davidjay writes:
As a bible lesson, you really need to study the life of Jacob, the trickster.
He was lazy and therefore became a trickster, trying to trick his way into blessings...and being the chosen one. He tricked his father into blessing him rather than blessing his brother Esau.
God chose Jacob. Unless you want to conclude that Jacob tricked God, you might want to rethink.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Davidjay, posted 05-27-2017 7:25 PM Davidjay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Davidjay, posted 05-29-2017 11:16 AM ringo has replied

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1696 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 152 of 174 (810423)
05-29-2017 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by ringo
05-28-2017 2:37 PM


Re: Jacob was a 'trickster'
The Lord choose Jacob because he changed and repented and learned trickery was not a means to an end. The end does not justify the means.... you must be honourable and just and fair along the way.
Its the principle of the Lord, and He demands it.
Jacob learned and had his name changed to Israel.
Israel is the name of a person who changed. This giving hope to evolutionists who by their personal choice can change and get a new name...called creationists of the Creator

Evolution is not science. It did not create life nor did it diversify life. It didn;t create the laws that exist nor did it create science. It is a religion and not Science.
Intelligent design always defeats evolutions lack of design and lack of intelligence. Luck and Chance is not a scientific doctrine,

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by ringo, posted 05-28-2017 2:37 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by ringo, posted 05-29-2017 11:43 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20020
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 153 of 174 (810429)
05-29-2017 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Davidjay
05-29-2017 11:16 AM


Re: Jacob was a 'trickster'
Davidjay writes:
The Lord choose Jacob because he changed and repented and learned trickery was not a means to an end.
Nope. God chose Jacob before he was even born. He said to Rebekah:
quote:
Genesis 25:23 ...Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
Isaac was the only one who needed to be fooled into doing the will of God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Davidjay, posted 05-29-2017 11:16 AM Davidjay has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by NoNukes, posted 05-29-2017 1:54 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 154 of 174 (810442)
05-29-2017 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by ringo
05-29-2017 11:43 AM


Re: Jacob was a 'trickster'
Nope. God chose Jacob before he was even born. He said to Rebekah:
One might argue that this was prophecy rather than promise. But that is kinda hard to separate out when God is doing the talking.
I think you have it right though. I'd also argue that Jacob's contriteness and prayer when he thought his brother Esau was going to kick his butt was not exactly an example of Jacob taking any kind of high road. Jacob "repented" out of pure self-preservation.
On the other hand, Esau readily and freely forgave his brother. Who was the true man between those two?
Davidjay writes:
The Lord choose Jacob because he changed and repented and learned trickery was not a means to an end.
No real evidence that Jacob learned any such lesson. He actually played tricks on Laban

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by ringo, posted 05-29-2017 11:43 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by jar, posted 05-29-2017 2:12 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 156 by Davidjay, posted 05-29-2017 7:49 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 157 by Davidjay, posted 05-29-2017 7:50 PM NoNukes has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 155 of 174 (810443)
05-29-2017 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by NoNukes
05-29-2017 1:54 PM


Re: Jacob was a 'trickster'
And in the Bible it is actually the God character that is described as a trickster during the wrestling match, not Jacob.
Genesis 32 writes:
24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by NoNukes, posted 05-29-2017 1:54 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1696 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 156 of 174 (810462)
05-29-2017 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by NoNukes
05-29-2017 1:54 PM


Re: Jacob was a 'trickster'
No real evidence that Jacob learned any such lesson. He actually played tricks on Laban
Nonukes, you do know some bible..good on ya, and good on your name picking,as NoNukes is a GOOD NAME, and names do have meaning and significance.... which is what we are talking about.
Jacob was intelligent and as an observer was scientific and learned from experience or asking the Lord about sheep and vision and striped 'kids'. please correct me and my memory if wrong......... he knew genetics from observing

Evolution is not science. It did not create life nor did it diversify life. It didn;t create the laws that exist nor did it create science. It is a religion and not Science.
Intelligent design always defeats evolutions lack of design and lack of intelligence. Luck and Chance is not a scientific doctrine,

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by NoNukes, posted 05-29-2017 1:54 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by NoNukes, posted 05-29-2017 9:40 PM Davidjay has replied

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1696 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 157 of 174 (810463)
05-29-2017 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by NoNukes
05-29-2017 1:54 PM


Re: Jacob was a 'trickster'
Yes, Jacob was still a bit of a trickster when faced with a greater more vile trickster in Laban..... but when faced with death , his own his wives and children and sheep at the hands of Esau who he tricked, Jacob repented and wrestled with the angel and caught him by the ****** Thats right the **********, and wouldnt let go....... he was serious and he had changed and wanted to be different, and change his ways.
Then and only then the Lord changed his name from Jacob the deceiver to Israel the righteous.
Jacob changed, repented, choose the Lord, choose honesty and truth rather than trickery..
Awesome true story... Thanks for the reminder...
Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.
Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.

Evolution is not science. It did not create life nor did it diversify life. It didn;t create the laws that exist nor did it create science. It is a religion and not Science.
Intelligent design always defeats evolutions lack of design and lack of intelligence. Luck and Chance is not a scientific doctrine,

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by NoNukes, posted 05-29-2017 1:54 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Davidjay, posted 05-29-2017 7:51 PM Davidjay has not replied
 Message 159 by NoNukes, posted 05-29-2017 8:52 PM Davidjay has replied

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1696 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 158 of 174 (810464)
05-29-2017 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Davidjay
05-29-2017 7:50 PM


Re: Jacob was a 'trickster'
....
Edited by Davidjay, : mispost

Evolution is not science. It did not create life nor did it diversify life. It didn;t create the laws that exist nor did it create science. It is a religion and not Science.
Intelligent design always defeats evolutions lack of design and lack of intelligence. Luck and Chance is not a scientific doctrine,

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Davidjay, posted 05-29-2017 7:50 PM Davidjay has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 159 of 174 (810467)
05-29-2017 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Davidjay
05-29-2017 7:50 PM


Re: Jacob was a 'trickster'
Jacob repented and wrestled with the angel and caught him by the ****** Thats right the **********, and wouldnt let go....... he was serious and he had changed and wanted to be different, and change his ways.
I have seen various interpretations of this incident. Your interpretation is... quite fanciful. And more than a little bit self-serving. There is nothing in the text that attaches this incident to Jacob's repenting.
I will also note that repenting without making his brother whole or just to avoid a butt whooping does not demonstrate contriteness.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Davidjay, posted 05-29-2017 7:50 PM Davidjay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Davidjay, posted 05-30-2017 12:07 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 160 of 174 (810468)
05-29-2017 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Davidjay
05-29-2017 7:49 PM


Re: Jacob was a 'trickster'
Nonukes, you do know some bible..good on ya,
Your condescension is not appreciated.
Jacob was intelligent and as an observer was scientific and learned from experience or asking the Lord about sheep and vision and striped 'kids'. please correct me and my memory if wrong......... he knew genetics from observing
Do you really believe that you can get colored sheep or cattle by having your animals mate in front of striped rods? FWIW, many of the folks in this thread have discussed this particular story in detail in a previous thread. I am well aware of what the Bible says about "genetics".

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Davidjay, posted 05-29-2017 7:49 PM Davidjay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Davidjay, posted 05-30-2017 12:11 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1696 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 161 of 174 (810532)
05-30-2017 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by NoNukes
05-29-2017 8:52 PM


Re: Jacob was a 'trickster'
When your life is on the line, and you and your loved ones are about to be slaughtered, because of your horrible tricking ways, does make one more contrite and more humble, and does make you search your heart to see if your sins were that bad, and make you ask for FORGIVENESS.
Just ask atheists and ************* before their passing....
Ive seen it many times, many get real, others get worse and worse and worse..... until they are no more, and go down still swinging and complaining about the Lords unfairness even as they go to their MAKER.
You decide why Jacob was renamed Israel...

Evolution is not science. It did not create life nor did it diversify life. It didn;t create the laws that exist nor did it create science. It is a religion and not Science.
Intelligent design always defeats evolutions lack of design and lack of intelligence. Luck and Chance is not a scientific doctrine,

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by NoNukes, posted 05-29-2017 8:52 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by NoNukes, posted 05-30-2017 12:51 PM Davidjay has not replied

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1696 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 162 of 174 (810534)
05-30-2017 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by NoNukes
05-29-2017 9:40 PM


Re: Jacob was a 'trickster'
Do you really believe that you can get colored sheep or cattle by having your animals mate in front of striped rods? FWIW, many of the folks in this thread have discussed this particular story in detail in a previous thread. I am well aware of what the Bible says about "genetics".
Yea, Jacob knew his genetics, and knew from observation, and knew from asking the Lord, as to how he could out trick the trickier Laban.........
mind you ***** ******* un************ evolutionists will say his visual techique proofs evolution in the sheep becoming a new KIND. But again, its just superifical and a color change...and as we know color change is not an evolutionary proof....
Via la difference and Jacob got his true reward in sheep (of a different color)

Evolution is not science. It did not create life nor did it diversify life. It didn;t create the laws that exist nor did it create science. It is a religion and not Science.
Intelligent design always defeats evolutions lack of design and lack of intelligence. Luck and Chance is not a scientific doctrine,

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by NoNukes, posted 05-29-2017 9:40 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Davidjay, posted 05-30-2017 12:14 PM Davidjay has not replied
 Message 164 by NoNukes, posted 05-30-2017 12:45 PM Davidjay has replied

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1696 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 163 of 174 (810535)
05-30-2017 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Davidjay
05-30-2017 12:11 PM


Re:Sex can be discussed HERE
I didnt know sex was ever discussed HEREIN before, I thought it was banned or not promoted.... or maybe thats only for me.....
But Yea, I might look into that biblical sex thread..... and post therein and thereon, and herein and hereon on further hereon til finnished.
IGTGOHWFLHB
Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.

Evolution is not science. It did not create life nor did it diversify life. It didn;t create the laws that exist nor did it create science. It is a religion and not Science.
Intelligent design always defeats evolutions lack of design and lack of intelligence. Luck and Chance is not a scientific doctrine,

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Davidjay, posted 05-30-2017 12:11 PM Davidjay has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 164 of 174 (810540)
05-30-2017 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Davidjay
05-30-2017 12:11 PM


Re: Jacob was a 'trickster'
Yea, Jacob knew his genetics, and knew from observation
The method of producing colored offspring that Jacob used has nothing to do with genetics. In fact, having sheep mate in front of striped rods will not affect the color of the offspring.
and knew from asking the Lord, as to how he could out trick the trickier Laban
Perhaps you will point out where the Lord told Jacob that it was okay to trick Laban and to take on that second wife. That would be interesting to see given that some folks have claimed that the Lord does not promote bigamy.
Here is an example of a request for Biblical Research and not debate.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Davidjay, posted 05-30-2017 12:11 PM Davidjay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Davidjay, posted 05-30-2017 11:14 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 168 by Davidjay, posted 05-31-2017 9:25 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 165 of 174 (810541)
05-30-2017 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Davidjay
05-30-2017 12:07 PM


Re: Jacob was a 'trickster'
When your life is on the line, and you and your loved ones are about to be slaughtered
That is the kind of repenting that murderers do when they are facing the gallows. It is just words without action. Did Jacob offer to return his brother's birthright or did he keep it for himself? Then he did not truly repent.
Just ask atheists and ************* before their passing..
What is the reward for such mewling?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Davidjay, posted 05-30-2017 12:07 PM Davidjay has not replied

  
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