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Author Topic:   Isaiah 53 speaks about ISRAEL, and not about the messiah.
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 112 of 176 (807924)
05-07-2017 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Davidjay
05-06-2017 11:11 AM


Re: Israel is never mentioned in Isaiah 53
For as He said directly and distinctly.. All nations are as nothing to me.... LOOK IT UP
There are a number of places where the Old Testament specifically calls out Israelites or the descendant's of Abraham as God's chosen people. Apparently, you interpret those things in a different way than do others. Could you enlighten us as to your view?
I'll quote examples that raise my eyebrows when I read your posts.
Deuteronomy 14:2
quote:
For you are a holy people to YHWH your God, and God has chosen you to be his treasured people from all the nations that are on the face of the earth
Deuteronomy 7:7-8
quote:
The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because you were more in number than any people; for you were the fewest of all people; but because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your ancestors.
Amos 3:2
quote:
You only have I singled out of all the families of the earth: therefore will I visit upon you all your iniquities.
Those verses on their face say that the people of Israel are God's chosen people, something with both favor and consequences. Now the verses do suggest that God did not choose them based on any particular genetic superiority. But that just raises the point that evolution is not particularly required in order to generate situations that separate one people for another.
But in the main, verses such as the ones above make me wonder why you pretend that nothing in the Bible calls out folks as God's chosen one. Even if you are to argue that such things no longer matter after Jesus Christ and Paul, surely they did matter before that.
Edited by NoNukes, : tags and grammar

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Davidjay, posted 05-06-2017 11:11 AM Davidjay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Davidjay, posted 05-07-2017 10:22 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 124 of 176 (807998)
05-07-2017 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Davidjay
05-07-2017 10:22 AM


Re: Israel is never mentioned in Isaiah 53
NoNUKES .......Yes they were chosen to show that the Lord doesnt have favorites..... as they rebelled from the start, and caused Moses no end of problems. Only the believers and honest and faithful ones went on with the Lords annointed..... again showing that individuals not groups are chosen. Have you forgotten your true History of the Exodus...
I am quite disappointed that you failed to address the words of the text which say the exact opposite of what you claim they do. The text says that the Lord does have a chosen people based on a promise made to Abraham long ago. The text also shows that Israel's lack of faithfulness may result in punishment, but not loss of their 'chosen' status.
I known the history of Exodus very well. And now I know you a little bit better than I did. Thanks for that.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Davidjay, posted 05-07-2017 10:22 AM Davidjay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Davidjay, posted 05-08-2017 12:26 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 128 of 176 (808131)
05-08-2017 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Davidjay
05-08-2017 12:26 PM


Re: Israel is never mentioned in Isaiah 53
Anyone could join Moses Exodus, and become chosen, despite their background....or bloodlines they just had to believe in the "Messiah to come' (Jesus). It was the law.
That is not what the text says, which is that the people of Israel were God's chosen people based on a pact formed with Abraham well before any of them every existed.
it was never by nationality or bloodlines, never EVER.
And yet the Bible says differently. In the old testament the exceptions are few and far between. Rahab was made an honorary Jew for betraying here own country to the Jewish people. Her country apparently was in the way of promises made to Israel. More to the point, arguing that she got her way despite her own immorality prior to Jesus forgiving all of our sins tells us what lesson?
Its a con, that the worldly Israel uses to get people on its side, no country is sacrosanct
What of the Bible text that tells us something completely different. Why do you discuss everything but that.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Davidjay, posted 05-08-2017 12:26 PM Davidjay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Davidjay, posted 05-12-2017 9:39 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 139 of 176 (808836)
05-13-2017 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Diomedes
05-12-2017 2:57 PM


Re: Israel is not special
What Davidjay needs:
- A spell checker
- A remedial math course
- A functioning cerebral cortex
- An intervention
- A new place to practice his hobby...

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Diomedes, posted 05-12-2017 2:57 PM Diomedes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 140 of 176 (808838)
05-13-2017 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Son Goku
05-12-2017 2:32 PM


Re: Israel is not special
I mean I gave you a passage where Moses directly states that Yahweh thinks they are his treasure. What more do you need.
I cited the same passage as well as others. Davidjay won't directly address that text from the Bible.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Son Goku, posted 05-12-2017 2:32 PM Son Goku has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Davidjay, posted 05-14-2017 10:07 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 154 of 176 (810442)
05-29-2017 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by ringo
05-29-2017 11:43 AM


Re: Jacob was a 'trickster'
Nope. God chose Jacob before he was even born. He said to Rebekah:
One might argue that this was prophecy rather than promise. But that is kinda hard to separate out when God is doing the talking.
I think you have it right though. I'd also argue that Jacob's contriteness and prayer when he thought his brother Esau was going to kick his butt was not exactly an example of Jacob taking any kind of high road. Jacob "repented" out of pure self-preservation.
On the other hand, Esau readily and freely forgave his brother. Who was the true man between those two?
Davidjay writes:
The Lord choose Jacob because he changed and repented and learned trickery was not a means to an end.
No real evidence that Jacob learned any such lesson. He actually played tricks on Laban

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by ringo, posted 05-29-2017 11:43 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by jar, posted 05-29-2017 2:12 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 156 by Davidjay, posted 05-29-2017 7:49 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 157 by Davidjay, posted 05-29-2017 7:50 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 159 of 176 (810467)
05-29-2017 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Davidjay
05-29-2017 7:50 PM


Re: Jacob was a 'trickster'
Jacob repented and wrestled with the angel and caught him by the ****** Thats right the **********, and wouldnt let go....... he was serious and he had changed and wanted to be different, and change his ways.
I have seen various interpretations of this incident. Your interpretation is... quite fanciful. And more than a little bit self-serving. There is nothing in the text that attaches this incident to Jacob's repenting.
I will also note that repenting without making his brother whole or just to avoid a butt whooping does not demonstrate contriteness.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Davidjay, posted 05-29-2017 7:50 PM Davidjay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Davidjay, posted 05-30-2017 12:07 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 160 of 176 (810468)
05-29-2017 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Davidjay
05-29-2017 7:49 PM


Re: Jacob was a 'trickster'
Nonukes, you do know some bible..good on ya,
Your condescension is not appreciated.
Jacob was intelligent and as an observer was scientific and learned from experience or asking the Lord about sheep and vision and striped 'kids'. please correct me and my memory if wrong......... he knew genetics from observing
Do you really believe that you can get colored sheep or cattle by having your animals mate in front of striped rods? FWIW, many of the folks in this thread have discussed this particular story in detail in a previous thread. I am well aware of what the Bible says about "genetics".

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Davidjay, posted 05-29-2017 7:49 PM Davidjay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Davidjay, posted 05-30-2017 12:11 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 164 of 176 (810540)
05-30-2017 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Davidjay
05-30-2017 12:11 PM


Re: Jacob was a 'trickster'
Yea, Jacob knew his genetics, and knew from observation
The method of producing colored offspring that Jacob used has nothing to do with genetics. In fact, having sheep mate in front of striped rods will not affect the color of the offspring.
and knew from asking the Lord, as to how he could out trick the trickier Laban
Perhaps you will point out where the Lord told Jacob that it was okay to trick Laban and to take on that second wife. That would be interesting to see given that some folks have claimed that the Lord does not promote bigamy.
Here is an example of a request for Biblical Research and not debate.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Davidjay, posted 05-30-2017 12:11 PM Davidjay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Davidjay, posted 05-30-2017 11:14 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 168 by Davidjay, posted 05-31-2017 9:25 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 165 of 176 (810541)
05-30-2017 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Davidjay
05-30-2017 12:07 PM


Re: Jacob was a 'trickster'
When your life is on the line, and you and your loved ones are about to be slaughtered
That is the kind of repenting that murderers do when they are facing the gallows. It is just words without action. Did Jacob offer to return his brother's birthright or did he keep it for himself? Then he did not truly repent.
Just ask atheists and ************* before their passing..
What is the reward for such mewling?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Davidjay, posted 05-30-2017 12:07 PM Davidjay has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 167 of 176 (810594)
05-31-2017 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Davidjay
05-30-2017 11:14 PM


Re: Jacob was a 'trickster'
Jacob could obviously take on more than one wife, and the second one (Rachel) was the one he served seven years for and not for Leah...the first daughter of Laban
Did I dispute that issue Davidjay? No I did not. Go back and read my post.
Matter of fact, the tribes of Israel (Jacob) came from the sons of these two wives and their two handmaidens or slaves...
I'll note that the rest of your post does not respond to anything I asked you about. Not going to bother with you any further.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Davidjay, posted 05-30-2017 11:14 PM Davidjay has not replied

  
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