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Author Topic:   Isaiah 53 speaks about ISRAEL, and not about the messiah.
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1364 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 5 of 176 (709013)
10-19-2013 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Eliyahu
10-18-2013 6:00 AM


Re: The Focus is Chapter 53
Isaiah 52:13; Behold My servant shall deal prudently . The key question here is: Who is it that the prophet Isaiah calls the servant of God? We shall let the prophet Isaiah speak for himself, and please keep in mind that the name of Jacob was changed into Israel after the fight with the angel in the end of Genesis 32; Jacob is synonymous with Israel:
Isaiah 41:8: But thou , Israel art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. Thou who I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thou from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee: Thou art my servant, I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.
Isaiah 44:1-2; Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant, and Israel who I have chosen. Thus said the Lord that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; fear not O Jacob my servant, and thou Jesurun whom I have chosen.
Isaiah 44:21; Remember these, O Jacob and Israel, for thou art my servant. I have formed thee, thou art my servant; O Israel thou shalt not be forgotten of me
Isaiah 45:4; For Jacob, my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name.
Isaiah 48:20; The lord hath redeemed his servant Jacob.
Isaiah 49:3; And said unto me: Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
There is more where this comes from, but with these you can catch it in one sentence.
So anyway, the servant of God is clearly identified in Isaiah (and in other prophets) as ISRAEL.
And an interesting point is that the messiah is NOWHERE in Isaiah, NOWHERE in the whole Tanach, ever referred to as "servant of God".
.
I'll take up your challenge Eliyahu. As I get a little more time today.
First of all you start the debate concerning Isaiah 53 and then go to other portions of Isaiah to prove that other entities can serve as the servant of God. That is not what I think the argument is. The issue is chapter 53.
In the book of Isaiah you indeed do have these entities serving as the servant of Jehovah -
1.) Isaiah the prophet himself
2.) Cyrus the king of Persia
3.) Israel as a nation
4.) The Suffering Servant which is Messiah.
While I have no yet quoted any verses yet, I present the outline of my objection. Chapter 53 concerns the Messiah the Suffering Servant.
Before I demonstrate this I think it would be good to indicate that many Christians do understand Christ as the Suffering Servant in chapter 53 because apostles taught that way from the beginning of the Christian church. And they most likely received this interpretation of Jesus Christ Himself.
Specifics will follow latter. However, that Isaiah the prophet or Cyrus king of Persia or even Israel the nation are sometimes spoken of as God's servant, elsewhere in the book of Isaiah, well receive no disagreement from me.
All three other referents to God's servant are types of Christ in one aspect or another.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Eliyahu, posted 10-18-2013 6:00 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Eliyahu, posted 10-19-2013 12:27 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1364 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 10 of 176 (709036)
10-19-2013 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Eliyahu
10-19-2013 12:27 PM


Re: The Focus is Chapter 53
Before I continue, a question:
What does "Bs'd" mean ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Eliyahu, posted 10-19-2013 12:27 PM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Eliyahu, posted 10-19-2013 2:07 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1364 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 12 of 176 (709040)
10-19-2013 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Eliyahu
10-19-2013 2:07 PM


Re: The Focus is Chapter 53
Bs'd
The above is an abbreviation of the Aramaic term "ba siata desmaya", and that means: "With the help of heaven".
Thankyou. Indeed, with the help of heaven.
And I will reply some shortly, with the help of the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, from Christ.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1364 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 13 of 176 (709045)
10-19-2013 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Eliyahu
10-19-2013 12:27 PM


Re: The Focus is Chapter 53
But in chapter 53 it is not outright mentioned who is the servant, therefore we have to look in other parts of Isaiah, to see who is the servant.
And there, many times, ISRAEL is called "the servant of God".
The passages concerning the Suffering Servant start with chapter 52:13 and continue through to include chapter 53.
The marred appearance of the Suffering Servant in 52:14 links Him to His intense persecution and being crushed in chapter 53 - "Indeed My Servant will act wisely and will prosper. He will be exalted and lifted up and very high. Even as many were astonished at Him - His visage was marred more than that of any man, And His form more than that of the sons of men -
So will He surprise many nations; Kings will shut their mouths because of Him; For what had not been recounted to them they will see, and what they had not heard of they will contemplate." (52:13-15)
The surprise is that One tortured, crucified, marred with agonizing inflictions, and killed will amazingly rise from the dead to be King of kings and Lord of lords over all the earth. Of course both Isaiah the prophet and Israel as a nation have suffered. But the following passages clarify that the prophecy is speaking of neither of those two.
Isaiah 53:2 - " ... He has no attracting form nor majesty that we should look upon Him."
Israel as a land is called "the beautiful land" (Daniel 8:9; 11:41) . This does not fit Israel having "no attracting" . Zion is called "the perfection of beauty" (Psalm 50:2). At least geographically these superlative descriptions don't match a place or person of whom it says \[b\]"He has no attracting form nor majesty that we should look upon Him, Nor beautiful appearance that we should desire Him."
Suppose the beauty is pertaining strictly to PEOPLE and not the LAND of Israel ? This doesn't work because "we" should pertain to the Jewish people. And they would be attractive and desirable to themselves. How could the Jews not be desirable to themselves as a nation ? The more reasonable interpretation is that an INDIVIDUAL is the one being spoken of in verse 2.
Not only so, Israel cannot atone for her own sins. The suffering of Israel is historic. And Isaiah was said to have been sawed in two when murdered. But Isaiah is included in the "we" throughout the chapter.
"He was despised; and we did not esteem Him." (verse 3) . It hardly makes sense that Isaiah is speaking of himself.
And it makes no sense that Israel as a people did not esteem Israel as a people.
That Israel despised Jesus, that makes sense for the majority of Jews.
That Israel did not esteem Jesus Christ also makes historical sense.
It makes no sense that Israel is meant where it says - "Surely He has born our sicknesses, And carried our sorrows."
The substitute of ANOTHER bearing our sicknesses and sorrows is intended. It is less likely that the passage means Israel has born her own sicknesses and her own sorrows in some substitutionary way. Israel has suffered no doubt. But the passage is concerning One unworthy to bear who has borne nonetheless for Israel in a substitutionary way.
This is proved by verse 6 - "Jehovah has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him."
The Isaiah iniquity is included in "us all" . So how can Isaiah be speaking of himself?
And the force of the passage is that One unworthy to bear iniquity is bearing it on behalf of others -
"We all like sheep have gone astray; each of us has turned aside to his own way, And Jehovah has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him." (v.6)
The One on whom God has caused the iniquity to fall must in contrast be one:
1.) who has NOT gone astray.
2.) who has not turned to His own way but has followed Jehovah God faithfully.
3.) one who is without iniquity.
It makes no sense that sinful Israel has in some substitutionary way borne her OWN iniquity.
This makes no sense for sinful Isaiah (Isaiah 6:5) who said -
"Woe is me, for I am finished! For I am a man of unclean lips, And in the midst of a people of unclean lips I dwell ..."
That being the case it makes sense for Isaiah to include himself in the phrase - "WE all like sheep have gone astray, And Jehovah hs caused the iniquity of US ALL to fall on Him."
What sense does it make to say that God has caused the iniquity of US ALL to fall on US ALL ?
But to be an offering for sin (v.10) it makes sense that the iniquity of US ALL has been caused to fall on ANOTHER in a propitiatory way. This is the Messiah Jesus.
"God was pleased to crush Him, to afflict Him with grief. When He makes Himself an offering for sin ..." (v.10a)
We may say Israel has at times been crushed in persecution.
We may also say the prophet Isaiah was "crushed" in his final martyrdom.
But these sufferings were not as an offering for the sins of others.
They could not be an offering for their own sins.
Deuteronomy chapter 28 proves that national suffering for Israel's own sins was in no way a substitutionary offering.
Appeals to the suffering of the Jewish people are moving. But those sufferings were not for an offering for the sins of others let alone an offering for their own sins. The one upon whom the crushing falls bears it as a SUBSTITUTE. And that matches the crucifixion of Jesus for the establishment of the new covenant in His innocent blood -
As He taught on the night that He was betrayed to be crushed at Calvary - "For this [cup] is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for forgiveness of sins." (Matt. 26:28)
I will stop here for tonight. But I close by saying that the New Testament is the oracles of God. It is the authoritative word of God. No more than a Jew regards Deuteronomy as a faulty, error prone commentary on the books of Exodus or Numbers do we Christians regard the twenty seven books of the New Testament to be a mere human commentary on the Tanach. It with authoritative finality that the Apostle Peter equates Isaiah 53:6 with the offering of Jesus on the cross -
First Peter 2:25 - "For you were like sheep being led astray, but you have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls."
And this Christ Peter says - "Who committed no sin, nor was guile found in His mouth; Who being reviled did not revile in return. He did not threaten but kept committing all to Him who judges righteously. Who Himself bore up our sins in His body on the tree, in order that we, having died to sin, might live to righteousness; by whose bruise you were healed." (v.22-24)
Peter's utterance is filled with references to Isaiah 53. And we Christians do not regard this as the faulty opinion of an erroneous commentary. Rather it is the infallible word of God as Exodus or Deuteronomy or Isaiah is also the word of God.
More to follow latter.
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1364 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 14 of 176 (709046)
10-19-2013 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Eliyahu
10-19-2013 12:27 PM


Re: The Focus is Chapter 53
And Israel is the most frequent called the servant of God.
The issue is not how frequently Israel is called the servant of God.
This does not negate that Isaiah and Cyrus the king of Persia are ALSO refered to God's servant.
And Isaiah 53 is an exception to the many places where Israel is the servant of God.
Wrong. That is an article of faith, without the slightest proof in the Tanach.
Of course it is a matter of faith. Contrary to what Isaiah 53:1 says, God HAS granted mercy that SOME have believed the report.
You are simply among those who have no believed the report because of no faith -
"WHO has believed our report ? And to whom has the arm of Jehovah been revealed ?
Yes it is a matter of faith and of revelation. God has had mercy to reveal to some that in Jesus Christ the "arm of Jehovah has been revealed."
I know what the Christians believe. You can believe anything you want.
With or without your permission the arm of Jehovah has been revealed to us and we have believed the report of Isaiah 53.
The Muslims believe that the suffering servant is Muhammed. You can believe anything you want, also that you are abduct by little green men.
But is really ridiculous is that you would regard Israel as being an offering for sin on behalf of Israel. That is contrary to the whole tone of a substitutionary offering for sin provided by One who is innocent and righteous.
That is the characteristic of the offering in Isaiah 53.
The proof for the servant being Israel is overwhelming.
No it is not overwhelming. And I will continue with reasons that Jesus Christ is by far the more logical interpretation of the prophecy of chapter 53.
"By the knowledge of Him, the righteous One, My Servant, will make the manuy righteous. And He will bear their iniquities." (v.11)
The bearing One Himself has to be without sins. If Israel is righteous then there is no need for them to be MADE righteous. Even less sense is made to say that righteous Israel bears the sins of unrighteous Israel making her righteous.
Rather a righteous Messiah bearing the sins of many that by knowledge of Him they might be justified and made righteous, fits the facts of the new covenant.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Eliyahu, posted 10-19-2013 12:27 PM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Eliyahu, posted 10-19-2013 11:51 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 16 by Eliyahu, posted 10-20-2013 12:08 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1364 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 19 of 176 (709080)
10-20-2013 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Eliyahu
10-19-2013 11:51 PM


Re: The Focus is Chapter 53
Behold, my servant shall act wisely; You believe this is JC. You believe JC is god. So God is his own servant?
You are shifting the discussion now to the triune nature of God. God's nature is exceedingly mysterious.
In the book of Zechariah you have God sending God.
You have God as both the Sender and the Sent One.
This occurs in Zechariah chapter 2.
"For thus says Jehovah of hosts," (v.8a)
Jehovah is the speaker.
"After the glory He has sent Me against the nations which plunder you; ..." (v.8b)
Jehovah is the Sent One.
" For he who touches you touches the pupil of His eye. (v.8c)
Jehovah is the speaker.
"For I am waving now My hand over them, .." (v.9a)
Jehovah is the Sent One waving His hand as well as the speaker.
"and they will be plunder for those who served them;
and you will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent Me." (v.9b)

They will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent Jehovah of hosts.
"Give a ringing shout and rejoice, O daughter of Zion, for now I am coming ..." (v.10a)
Jehovah of hosts the speaker is coming.
" and I will dwell in your midst, declares Jehovah " (v.10b)
Jehovah the declarer will dwell in their midst.
" And many nations will join themselves to Jehovah in that day and will become My people ..." (v.10c)
Nations join themselves to Jehovah the speaker who will dwelling in the midst.
" and will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent Me to you." (v.10c)
Jehovah of hosts is both the sender and the one sent.
God therefore sends God. Jehovah God sends and they shall know that the One sent has been sent BY Jehovah of hosts.
Zechariah 2:8-10 is therefore one of the mysterious passages in the Tanach revealing the mysterious nature of God.
And in other places Jehovah and the Angel of Jehovah are virtually synonymous and their titles are used interchangeably.
Now not ALL the aspects of God are revealed in one passage.
And not all the aspects are revealed in one passage.
But when all the passages are considered together we see a triune God.
Therefore as eternal life He is not only endless in duration but limitless in other ways as well.
The Suffering Servant's deity is not that much stressed in Isaiah 53. However His death and resurrection is definitely seen.
DEATH - Isaiah 53:8b - " ... He was cut off from the land of the LIVING. And they assigned His GRAVE with the wicked, But with a rich man in HIS DEATH."
RESURRECTION - "He will see the fruit of the travail of His soul, And He will be satisfied " (v.11)
" Therefore I will divide to Him a portion with the Great, and He will divide the spoil with the Strong." (v.12a)
Death and Resurrection are indicate. And " the Great " is God. And "the Strong" is also God.
The eternal Great God and the eternal Strong God will divide the portion and the spoil with His Servant who is Righteous.
This God will do "Because He poured out His life [Lit soul] unto DEATH And was numbered with the transgressors, Yet He alone bore the sin of many and interceded for the transgressor." (v.12c)
Jesus Christ the Son of God and the Righteous One was guiltless. But he was erroneously numbered with the transgressors of which He was NOT. But in His death He bore alone the sin of the world. And He also interceded for their forgiveness -
" ... there they crucified Him ... And Jesus said, Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." (Luke 23:33,34)
The Righteous Suffering Messiah interceded for the sinners. And because of His intercession many are forgiven who believe into Him -
"By the knowledge of Him, the righteous One, My Servant, will make the many righteous, And He will bear their iniquities." (Isa. 53:11b)
He is resurrected from the dead for His act of obedience to the will of God. And with the Strong and Great eternal God His Father, the Son of God conquers and divides the spoil of the universe with Him as King of kings and Lord of lords.
I will continue below.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1364 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 20 of 176 (709081)
10-20-2013 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Eliyahu
10-20-2013 12:08 AM


Re: The Focus is Chapter 53
When God speaks about "His servant", is God then speaking about himself or about somebody else?
He is speaking of One of the "Us" as in Genesis He said "Let US make man in Our image."
Then it says that "God created man in His own image"
God became incarnated as a man. And as the Father took up the emblem of Authority the Son took up the emblem of perfect Submission to Authority.
In such He was one of us - a genuine man yet God Himself incarnate. Isaiah 9:6 says that He is called WONDERFUL. We can see why.
Hint: A three year old can come up with the right answer.
Unless you turn and become as little children you will not enter the kingdom of God, says the Lord Jesus.
I don't think He meant that one has to become conversant in the Trinity.
I do think He means to recognize that deity of Christ and that He is the Lord.
Paul instructions about being saved is not that a man must be able to explain the Trinity. Rather it is the confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead. To that I would give immediate attention. There will always be mysterious aspects of the Bible that are difficult to explain. But we can confess Jesus as Lord and believe God raised Him from the dead -even down to a three year old -
"That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart there is believing unto righteousness, and with the mouth there is confession unto salvation.
For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes on Hims shall not be put to shame." "(Romans 10:9-11)
his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the children of mankind
When did that happen to JC?
He was tortured horribly.
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with sickness When exactly was JC sick?
Being well acquainted with GRIEF means His own as well as others.
My English version says GRIEF not sickness in verse 3.
Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Wasn’t JC a very popular preacher who entered Jerusalem amongst a big crowd of followers?
That was after He began His ministry after 30 YEARS of just blending in with everyone else in Nazareth.
Though He was God incarnate as a man He made no particular stir. He simply lived a perfect human life for 30 years.
At the age of 30 He did begin His public ministry which attracted attention.
Isaiah 53 is not intended to be an exhaustive biography of Jesus in every yearly detail.
And even if it DID refer to Israel it would be unreasonable to expect within 12 verses EVERYTHING concerning the history of Israel would be covered in detail. To demand all details in the case of Jesus but generalize in the case of Israel would be to have a double standard.
Cont. latter
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Eliyahu, posted 10-20-2013 12:08 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Eliyahu, posted 12-30-2013 11:49 PM jaywill has not replied
 Message 24 by arachnophilia, posted 12-31-2013 8:29 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1364 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 21 of 176 (709082)
10-20-2013 4:15 PM


He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth;
He didn’t open his mouth? "When Jesus said this, one of the officials nearby struck him in the face. "Is this the way you answer the high priest?" he demanded. "If I said something wrong," Jesus replied, "testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?" John 18:22
I count this as your grasping at straws. This is seeking a little technicality to disprove a great prophecy.
For the most part Christ opened not His mouth. We are told that He could have called twelve legions of angels to protect and defend Him.
When he was hanging at the cross he accused God, that is himself; he cried out: Why did I forsake myself?
Your are grasping at straws. Beside you hypocritically display a double standard. You do not object to the prophecy pertaining to Israel when the people of Israel opened their mouths in protest PLENTY.
If the issues you nit - pick disqualify Christ as the Suffering Servant they would also disqualify Israel as the interpretation.
I don't think further comment on this line of reasoning is necessary.
This is a very clear proof it speaks about the Jewish people being punished for their own sins. The plague was upon THEM. Plural. So this is not about a singular person, so this is not about the messiah.
There is no argument that Israel has suffered. Suffering alone is not the most significant aspect of the prophecy. Rather that one who was righteous and without transgression bore those of others. This could not be said about Israel.
Neither is death and resurrection yet applicable to Israel but it is applicable to Jesus the Son of God.
Besides the Bible says that NO MAN can pay to God the ransom for his brother's soul that he should continue to live forever.
Psalm 49:7 - "None can by any means redeem his brother or give to God the ransom for him ( For the redemption of their soul is costly and must be given up forever ) that he would yet live always and not see corruption."
Sinners cannot redeem sinners before God.
Sinners cannot offer to God a ransom to redeem another sinner.
The price is too costly. Jesus Christ had the value before God to do so.
He can redeem man unto eternal life.
But Israel as sinners cannot redeem themselves and cannot pay the ransom for their own souls. The sacrifice of Jesus though has eternal efficacy and can redeem Israelites and all men unto eternal life (John 3:16)
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1364 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 26 of 176 (715084)
01-01-2014 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by arachnophilia
12-31-2013 8:29 PM


Re: god made into the image of man
God is not a man, that he should lie;
neither the son of man, that he should repent:
hath he said, and shall he not do it?
or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
(Numbers 23:19) emphasis mine
This is an often used passage used to disprove the incarnation of God as a man. But I think it backfires because if God SHOULD become a man He also would not lie.
Therefore when the "child ... born" is called "Mighty God" and the "son ... given" is called "Eternal Father" THAT Person also would not lie.
By the time Numbers 23:19 was spoken by God, God should not and does not lie.
By the time the prophecy of incarnation was fulfilled in the birth of Jesus Christ, God still should not and does not lie.
Jesus Christ did not lie about Himself.
i think you are mixing up the difference between god making mankind in his image, and god making himself in mankind's image. or, perhaps, mankind making a man into an image of god.
If the issue is whether or not man adds his erroneous concepts to imagine what God is like - it is true of course. Sometimes man does "create" God in his fallen own image.
However, that does not change the fact that God created man in His own image.
The Bible says that Christ is the image of the invisible God (Col. 1:15).
And the Bible says God created man in His own image (Gen. 1:26,27).
So admittedly there could be a "chicken and egg" paradox - which came first.
Did God create man in His image and then afterwards become a man in that very image ? Or did God create man according to Jesus Christ, with what Jesus Christ is in mind beforehand ?
I lean towards God having Jesus Christ in mind and creating man according to what Jesus Christ is. The God who came walking in the garden in the cool of the day to speak with Adam, was Christ / God before He was incarnated through birth from the virgin Mary.
Man fell into sin. And since that time, of course man's darkened mind has created many gods according to man's selfish, lustful, petty, vengeful, arrogant own sinful self. There's no question about that.
Again, that doesn't change that the uncreated and eternal God created man in His own image. And that man is in need of salvation from his fallen state.
If I haven't mentioned it yet, I would also add that our phrase "mankind" is interesting when we consider Genesis. All the other living things are said to be after their own kind. But when it gets to human beings it says really that they are after God's "kind" - in the image of God according to the likeness of God.
We know that nothing living on the earth is exactly like, or really anything like humanity. We are unique on the earth.
Much of this sense of human uniqueness has been lost in the concern for ecological health and because of the dwarfing effect of the sheer immensity of the size of the known universe.
The Psalmist before the scientific age uttered something of the same sense of insignificance of man -
quote:
" When I see Your heavens, the works of Your fingers, The moon and the stars, which You ordained,
What is mortal man, that You remember him, and the son of man that you visit him ? " (Psalm 8:2,3)

"Among billions of galaxies and as many possible planets, what is man ? "
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by arachnophilia, posted 12-31-2013 8:29 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by arachnophilia, posted 01-01-2014 12:45 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1364 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 28 of 176 (715209)
01-02-2014 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by arachnophilia
01-01-2014 12:45 PM


Re: god made into the image of man
so, god lied when he said he wasn't a man?
I do not believe God lied when He said "God is not a man that He should lie."
Neither do I believe God lied when the "child ... born" was the Mighty God and the "son ... given" was the Eternal Father.
In both cases God "who cannot lie" spoke the truth. ( Titus 1:2 )
God was not always a man for man is an item of God's creation.
But God became a man when the Word became flesh (John 1:1,14 and Isaiah 9:6).
quote:
In the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before the times of the ages." (Titus 1:2)
in fact, the text goes a bit further than that. the older story, genesis 2, has god literally breathing his own soul into man. in genesis 2, adam is literally part of god. is it kosher to worship adam?
Before I respond please elaborate in terms of linguistics. Why do you believe God breathed His soul into man ?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by arachnophilia, posted 01-01-2014 12:45 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by ramoss, posted 01-02-2014 2:35 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 32 by arachnophilia, posted 01-02-2014 6:33 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1364 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 29 of 176 (715225)
01-02-2014 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by arachnophilia
01-01-2014 12:45 PM


Re: god made into the image of man
sure, but just as we are not worship any other gods, we are not to worship any man.
Let me be clear.
Yes, the created man as Adam was not to be an object of worship.
No man descending from Adam was to be an object of worship.
Now further along in the economy of God God is manifested in the flesh - incarnation.
Psalm 72 is a Messianic Psalm. It speaks of Solomon but prophetically points beyond Solomon to the real and ultimate son of David - the Messianic Son of God.
Look what it says concerning this MAN:
Verse 5 - "They will fear You as long as the sun endures throughout all generations."
Verse 7 - "In His days the righteous will flourish, and there will be an abundance of peace until the moon is no more. And He will have dominion from sea to sea and from the River unto the ends of the earth."
Verse 9 - "The desert dwellers will bow down before Him."
Verse 11 - "And all the kings will bow down before Him; All the nations will serve Him."
Verse 15b - "And prayer shall be made continually for Him; He shall be blessed all the day long. There will be an abundance of grain on earth ..."
Verse 17 - "His name will be forever; As long as the sun endures, His name will spread; and all men will be blessed in Him; All the nations will call Him blessed."
Verse 18 - "Blessed be Jehovah God, the God of Israel ... And blessed be His glorious name forever; And may His glory fill the whole earth. Amen and amen."
In those blessed days, if we are blessed to be there, don't you think these passages reveal an adoration and worship towards this Man ... this Godman ?
David prophetically calls this Messiah his own Lord -
quote:
"Jehovah declares to my Lord, Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies Your footstool."
This is the Psalm Jesus used to confound the Pharisees. David's Lord was going to be David's Messianic Son.
quote:
"Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus questioned them, saying, What do you think concerning the Christ? Whose son is He?
They said to Him, David's. He said to them, How then does David in spirit call Him Lord, saying,
'Sit at My right hand until I put Your enemies underneath Your feet? If then David calls Him Lord, how is He his son ?
And no one was able to answer Him a word ..." (Matt. 22:41-46a)

I believe that this Man is the referent of the child born called Mighty God. He is worthy of my worship.
I believe that this Man is the fulfillment the Son given called Everlasting God.
I am happy to worship Him in all that worship entails - love, praise, thanksgiving, even more breathing His Spirit into my innermost being, drinking of His as the living water.
Hebrews 1 quotes Psalm 97:7 that the Firstborn Son of God comes again into the inhabited earth being worshiped by the angels.
quote:
"And when He brings again the Firstborn into the inhabited earth, He [God] says, And let all the angels of God worship Him." (Hebrews 1:6)
This Godman is worthy of my worship.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by arachnophilia, posted 01-01-2014 12:45 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by arachnophilia, posted 01-02-2014 6:49 PM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1364 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 31 of 176 (715255)
01-02-2014 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by ramoss
01-02-2014 2:35 PM


Re: god made into the image of man
AH yes.. the good old misunderstanding of Isaiah 9:6 (or 9:5 in the Hebrew numbering).
That is the royal name of Hezekiah. There are plenty of incidence and examples in the Jewish scripture where people's names describe traits in God, and Hezekiah literally means 'God is our might'.. so.. that's just one of the list of his royal names , from a historical point of view.
No need to shove prophecy into that.
There were many passages which spoke glowing things regarding David and Solomon and Hezekiah. But these good patriarchs were pointers to the Son of God as the ultimate Yes and Amen of all the promises of God.
Do you think Solomon, son of David, fulfilled all the qualifications of the Messianic king? Solomon with his 600 wives, 300 concubines and idolatry leading Israel astray. Solomon was good. But he was not that good.
Now Hezekiah was a great king. But when God told him it was time for him to die he tearfully requested an extension. So God mercifully gave him 15 more years. Immediately after that account we see the account of Hezekiah's failure and discipline.
God knew that he could not take any more temptations.
God knows when it is time for the good king to depart this life.
Then we see what Hezekiah says about the misfortune that is going to befall his kingdom because of his folly. Hezekiah says to the effect - "Well, as long as there is peace in MY time, it is ok."
So much for the Wonderful Counselor.
Here we see the distance between the Son of God and the good Old Testament king. In the last analysis good king Hezekiah only cared for his own legacy. So if you were to ask Hezekiah about Isaiah 9:6 he'd probably confess - "I was good. But I wasn't that good."
Jesus the Son of God cared nothing for Himself. He wanted nothing for Himself. He wanted everything for the will of His Father. And the Holy Spirit in a time transcendent way is revealing the difference and distance between Hezekiah and the Son of God.
So the child born called Mighty God and the Son given called Eternal Father must point beyond to One greater than Hezekiah.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by ramoss, posted 01-02-2014 2:35 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by arachnophilia, posted 01-02-2014 7:00 PM jaywill has not replied
 Message 62 by ramoss, posted 01-20-2014 9:18 PM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1364 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 35 of 176 (715270)
01-02-2014 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by arachnophilia
01-02-2014 6:33 PM


Re: breath and dust
to expand on ramoss's comment, the context and chiastic structure of proto-isaiah strongly indicate that this child is the future king, chezeqiyahu, "strength of/from yahweh", or hezekiah as you know him. it is hezekiah who rules when assyria is turned back at the walls of jerusalem, as prophesied two chapters earlier. in proto-isaiah, hezekiah is the messiah.
The sophistication of your reply is admirable.
However, the prophecy does not say this Person's rule is limited to the walls of Jerusalem or even the land of Israel.
quote:
"To the increase of His government and to His peace there is no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom."
And the duration is unto eternity.
quote:
"In justice and righteousness from now to eternity."
The Son of God requests of His Father and is granted the nations and the ends of the earth as His inheritance in His kingdom.
quote:
"I will recount the decree of Jehovah: You are My Son; Today I have begotten You.
Ask of Me, And I will give the nations as Your inheritance and the limits of the earth as Your possession."

I submit that Isaiah 9:6 and Psalm 2 are speaking of the same Person - Jesus Christ. A Righteous King, the extent of Who's kingdom and peace will be without end and duration unto eternity - the Son of God.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by arachnophilia, posted 01-02-2014 6:33 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by arachnophilia, posted 01-02-2014 8:37 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1364 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 36 of 176 (715271)
01-02-2014 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by arachnophilia
01-02-2014 6:33 PM


Re: breath and dust
jaywill: But God became a man when the Word became flesh (John 1:1,14 and Isaiah 9:6).
if you believe the new testament, and ignore most of the old, where the two are fairly incompatible and become more incompatible the further man descends from adam.
Of course our belief or disbelief do not make the reality. The Word became flesh and tabernacled among us, as John writes, whether or not I believe.
quote:
"He came to His own, yet those who were His own did not receive Him.
But as many as received Him, to them He gave authority to become children of God ..... etc." (John 1:11,12a)

Some did not received Him (who would be expected to - His own).
Some received Him.
Either way " ... the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us ... full of grce and reality. "
Far from ignoring the Tanach the Gospel of John is solidly built upon it.
quote:
"For the law was given through Moses, grace and reality came through Jesus Christ. (v.17)
The law of Moses was "given."
Grace and Reality "came".
A Person came - God as the Word become flesh embodying grace and reality.
The further man descends from Adam the more astounding is the faithfulness of God the Creator who promised to Adam that the seed of the woman would come and bruise the head of the serpent. And in so doing would be bruised upon the heel (Genesis 3:15) .
The virgin birth of the Son of God is indicated.
The judging of Satan on His cross is indicated.
Yet His dying in the process is indicated.
The amazing faithfulness of God from Genesis 3:15 is witnessed by the virgin birth of Christ as the Word become flesh.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by arachnophilia, posted 01-02-2014 6:33 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by arachnophilia, posted 01-02-2014 9:01 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1364 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 39 of 176 (715298)
01-03-2014 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by arachnophilia
01-02-2014 8:37 PM


Re: breath and dust
messianic prophecies typically speak of ruling the entire world, which is one of the reasons that modern jews reject the idea of jesus as a messiah. world peace and domination? nope, no messiah yet.
Jews modern or ancient have their scriptures from God. So it is nothing to boast in that doubt the Scriptures.
For example, Daniel's vision of the stone cut out without hands and smiting the great image of Nebuchadnezzar's dream is messianic.
The last part of Nebuchadnessar's vision and Daniel's interpretation:
quote:
"You were watching until a stone was cut out without hands, and it struck the image at its feet of iron and clay and crushed them. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed all at once, and they became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind caried them away so that no trace of them was found.
And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
This is the dream; and we will tell its interpretation before the king." (Daniel 2:34-36)

quote:
"And as the toes of the feet [of the great image] were partly of iron and partly of clay, so some of the kingdom will be strong and part of it will be fragile ... And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will raise up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and its reign will not be left to another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms; and it will stand forever.
Inasmuch as you saw that out of the mountain a stone was cut without hands and that it crushed the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold, the great God has made known to the king what will happen afterwards; and the dream is certain, and its interpretation trustworthy." (Daniel 2:42,4-45)

The great image represents the major world powers down through history. And the clay mixed with iron in the toes, (the latter days of world kingdoms), may represent the mixture of kingships with democracies - partly strong and partly weak.
Anyway the stone cut out without hands from the mountain is the Messiah and His kingdom which will smash ALL wordly kingdoms, governments and empires. This Messianic kingdom will fill the whole earth.
This is the Jewish Scripture. So it should be no boast of supposed humility that the Jewish people not recognize that Messiah's kingdom will crush and replace all the earthly governments and fill the whole earth with His divine kingdom.
Whether they agree or not, this is the prophecy. And why should they not believe that Yahweh has already commanded that the whole earth look unto Him for salvation.
quote:
"Turn to Me and be saved, All the ends of the earth, For I am God and there is no one else." (Isaiah 45:22)
Not only Israel, but ultimately all the ends of the earth must be saved by the God of Israel.
this is, in fact, the very same prophecy given to david, that his seed would sit on the throne forever.
That is the Lord Jesus whom we all can know today in His form as life giving Spirit before His physical descent to reign.
"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
His pneumatic form as the Holy Spirit can impart spiritual life into our innermost being. This is in this church age. At the end of this church age He will come again physically. He is of the seed of David.
quote:
" ... the gospel of God, which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, Concerning His Son, who came out of the seed of David according to the flesh,
Who was designated the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness out of the resurrection of the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 1:1b-4)

but remember how god sometimes changes his mind? where assyria failed, babylon succeeded, and judah was carried off into exile. it's not really right to look back on this and assume that god's word then held forever so this must mean something else... not when you just got done arguing that the business about god not being a man, well, he reneged on that one.
There was no reneging. At the time of the prophecy of Numbers 23:19 the incarnation had not occured in time. So God IS NOT A MAN that He should lie.
Now I am rather surprised that you speak of reneging man in the same breath as referring to Numbers 23:19. Consider please the remainder of the passage:
quote:
"God is not a man, that He should lie, NOR the son of man that He should repent."
Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not establish it?
Now I have received a word to bless; Since He has blessed, then I cannot reverse it. "
[my emphasis]
Yes, man may cause some problem to God, through disobedience or unbelief.
Yes, some obstacle to His will may be thrown up by His creatures.
We may cause Him some problem. But He cannot fail to accomplish the word gone out of His mouth.
Are we grasping the essence of Balaam's prophecy here? Balaam wanted to please Balak and utter some displeasing curse against Isreal because they were so bad. As much as Balaam wanted to do the job, be handsomely paid by Israel's enemy, he simply could only say what God put in his mouth, which included -
quote:
"Now I have received a word to bless; Since He has blessed I cannot reverse it.
He has bit beheld iniquity in Jacob, Nor has He seen trouble in Israel; Jehovah their God is with them ..."

Now to paraphrase this a little bit, please indulge me. The essence of this is like God saying:
"I see My redeemed people. I see no fault in them. They are precious and lovable. You, my enemy, can point out this and that fault for your accusation. And you may have some ground to accuse because of My people's failure.
But this is not because of your regard for righteousness but because of your opposition to God. Captivities and dispersions, punishments, I can deal with through My great redemption."
Balak, is the enemy of Israel who hired a genuine prophet of God to prophesy evil things about God's elect. But it would not happened. God said He saw no iniquity in Jacob. They in fact look so very beautiful to Him.
It is a touching story. We might say "Are you Kidding ?? All the bad things Israel did in the book of Exodus and Numbers? Don't you see how bad they are?"
Yes, God sees their sins. But He doesn't seem them according to the Devils accusation. If the Devil comes in to accuse with curses which appear to have some legitimate ground, God says "They look beautifully redeemed and set apart to Me ... My lovely and lovable elect saints. How pleasant. I think I will bless them instead."
To come back to the Messianic kingdom, the Assyrian discipline, the Babylonian discipline, or any other conquering nation's discipline will not stop God from performing His will.
jaywill:
I submit that Isaiah 9:6 and Psalm 2 are speaking of the same Person - Jesus Christ.
in fact, they are both speaking about davidic kings -- something jesus christ was not. psalm 2 is a coronation psalm. jesus was never crowned. isaiah 9 says he will sit on the throne. jesus never sat on the throne. so... no. it can't be about jesus. not if jesus didn't do any of the stuff it talks about.
This kind of complaint I regard as similar to the Hebrews being impatient with Moses. In the first confrontation with Pharoah, Pharoah would not budge, made the oppression worst, and everyone was dejected and doubting.
Then the plagues. Then the wilderness. Then the 40 YEARS to do what should have taken only 11 days. There was opportunity to doubt Moses and some even wanted to stone him and return to Egypt.
Granted, some aspects of the Isaiah prophecy have not yet seen their complete fulfillment. But too much of it has come to pass to give us the confidence that we are on the right track.
I leave you with two passages spoken by Jesus AFTER His resurrection to His dejected followers:
[quote] "And He said to them, O foolish and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and enter into His glory? And beginning from Moses and from all the prophets, He explained to them clearly in all Scriptures the t hings concerning Himself." (Luke 24:25-27)
[/ quote]
Then again after their joyful realization that He had been raised from the dead.
quote:
"And He said to them, These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all the things written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and Psalms concerning Me must be fulfilled.
Then He opened their mind to understand the Scriptures; And He said to them, Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise up from the dead on the third day. And that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
You are witnesses of these things." (Luke 24:44-48)

This was Christ's own view of the Hebrew Bible. And I believe what He believed. Yet there are still some details of His mission yet to see fulfillment while we believers witness to Christ through the New Testament Gospel.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by arachnophilia, posted 01-02-2014 8:37 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by arachnophilia, posted 01-03-2014 9:24 PM jaywill has replied

  
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