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Author Topic:   Isaiah 53 speaks about ISRAEL, and not about the messiah.
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 1683 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 1 of 176 (709003)
10-17-2013 12:21 AM


Bs'd
Christianity claims that Isaiah 53 speaks about their messiah.
However the plain text of Isaiah clearly shows it speaks about the nation Israel, and not about the messiah.
If Christians disagree, please give some proof from the prophet Isaiah, or from the rest of the Tanach, that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.
Thanks in advance,
Eliyahu

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Adminnemooseus, posted 10-17-2013 12:44 AM Eliyahu has replied
 Message 170 by Christian7, posted 09-18-2022 7:26 AM Eliyahu has not replied
 Message 175 by Dredge, posted 10-19-2022 11:20 PM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 1683 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 3 of 176 (709005)
10-18-2013 6:00 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Adminnemooseus
10-17-2013 12:44 AM


Re: Need more content
Bs'd
Christianity claims that Isaiah 53 speaks about their messiah.
However the plain text of Isaiah clearly shows it speaks about the nation Israel, and not about the messiah.
If Christians disagree, please give some proof from the prophet Isaiah, or from the rest of the Tanach, that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.
I will start by giving some proof it speaks about the people of Israel:
Isaiah 52:13; Behold My servant shall deal prudently . The key question here is: Who is it that the prophet Isaiah calls the servant of God? We shall let the prophet Isaiah speak for himself, and please keep in mind that the name of Jacob was changed into Israel after the fight with the angel in the end of Genesis 32; Jacob is synonymous with Israel:
Isaiah 41:8: But thou , Israel art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. Thou who I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thou from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee: Thou art my servant, I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.
Isaiah 44:1-2; Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant, and Israel who I have chosen. Thus said the Lord that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; fear not O Jacob my servant, and thou Jesurun whom I have chosen.
Isaiah 44:21; Remember these, O Jacob and Israel, for thou art my servant. I have formed thee, thou art my servant; O Israel thou shalt not be forgotten of me
Isaiah 45:4; For Jacob, my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name.
Isaiah 48:20; The lord hath redeemed his servant Jacob.
Isaiah 49:3; And said unto me: Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
There is more where this comes from, but with these you can catch it in one sentence.
So anyway, the servant of God is clearly identified in Isaiah (and in other prophets) as ISRAEL.
And an interesting point is that the messiah is NOWHERE in Isaiah, NOWHERE in the whole Tanach, ever referred to as "servant of God".
.
.
And when we look at the context of this text, we see that it speaks about ISRAEL. No messiah to be found in the context.
So also the context proves it speaks about ISRAEL, and not about the messiah.
.
.
And there is of course the conceptual proof:
The concept of God who must let Himself be killed by His creatures before He can forgive them, is NOWHERE to be found in the Tanach.
But, if we fill in Israel as the servant, what we get is the following:
"But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities, the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and with his stripes we are healed." We also have to ask: who is the 'our' and the 'we'? Here is the prophet Isaiah speaking as a part of the Jewish people. So also the 'we' points to the Jewish people. Now in stead of the metaphor, 'the servant', let's fill in the Jewish people and see what we get: But [the Jewish people] were wounded for the transgressions of [the Jewish people], [the Jewish people] were bruised for the iniquities of [the Jewish people], the chastisement of the peace of [the Jewish people] was upon [the Jewish people], and with the stripes of [the Jewish people] [the Jewish people] are healed.
So what we see here, is that the Jews were punished by God for the sins of the Jews.
And that just happens to be a concept which is all over the Tanach.
.
.
And now: What proof from Isaiah or the rest of the Tanach do the Christians have that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah?
Absolutely totally nothing.
Glad to be of service,
.
.
In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Adminnemooseus, posted 10-17-2013 12:44 AM Adminnemooseus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by jaywill, posted 10-19-2013 8:29 AM Eliyahu has replied
 Message 6 by GDR, posted 10-19-2013 10:24 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 1683 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 7 of 176 (709033)
10-19-2013 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jaywill
10-19-2013 8:29 AM


Re: The Focus is Chapter 53
Bs'd
First of all you start the debate concerning Isaiah 53 and then go to other portions of Isaiah to prove that other entities can serve as the servant of God. That is not what I think the argument is. The issue is chapter 53.
But in chapter 53 it is not outright mentioned who is the servant, therefore we have to look in other parts of Isaiah, to see who is the servant.
And there, many times, ISRAEL is called "the servant of God".
The messiah in the whole Tanach exactly ZERO times.
In the book of Isaiah you indeed do have these entities serving as the servant of Jehovah -
1.) Isaiah the prophet himself
2.) Cyrus the king of Persia
3.) Israel as a nation
And Israel is the most frequent called the servant of God.
4.) The Suffering Servant which is Messiah.
Wrong. That is an article of faith, without the slightest proof in the Tanach.
While I have no yet quoted any verses yet, I present the outline of my objection. Chapter 53 concerns the Messiah the Suffering Servant.
Before I demonstrate this I think it would be good to indicate that many Christians do understand Christ as the Suffering Servant in chapter 53 because apostles taught that way from the beginning of the Christian church. And they most likely received this interpretation of Jesus Christ Himself.
Specifics will follow latter. However, that Isaiah the prophet or Cyrus king of Persia or even Israel the nation are sometimes spoken of as God's servant, elsewhere in the book of Isaiah, well receive no disagreement from me.
All three other referents to God's servant are types of Christ in one aspect or another.
I know what the Christians believe. You can believe anything you want.
The Muslims believe that the suffering servant is Muhammed. You can believe anything you want, also that you are abduct by little green men.
However, the Christians, like the Muslims, don't have a shred of evidence from the Tanach to back up their story.
The proof for the servant being Israel is overwhelming.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by jaywill, posted 10-19-2013 8:29 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by jaywill, posted 10-19-2013 2:01 PM Eliyahu has replied
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 Message 14 by jaywill, posted 10-19-2013 10:42 PM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 1683 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 8 of 176 (709034)
10-19-2013 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by GDR
10-19-2013 10:24 AM


The suffering servant is ISRAEL
I think that you are absolutely right. That text is about the people Israel. However, as a Christian, I understand that Jesus was the perfect Jew and became the sacrificial Lamb or scapegoat and stood in for all of Israel
In the Jewish Scriptures there was to be a messiah or anointed one that would come and lead the people against their enemies. There was also a thread of the idea that in some way Yahweh would return to His people and be their King. There is the Exodus theme which involved the suffering of the people but that they would ultimately come out the other side into the land of milk and honey. I believe that Jesus combined all of these themes and in some way understood Yahweh as fulfilling these themes through Him, and of course as a Christian I believe that God confirmed that message with the resurrection.
Bs'd
Just don't loose sight of the fact that your believes have no foundation whatsoever in the Hebrew Bible, and that they go against the plain literal meaning of Isaiah.
What Christianity does, as usual, is to rip a piece of text which has no bearing on the messiah whatsoever out of context, and present it as a "messianic prophecy", which it clearly is not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by GDR, posted 10-19-2013 10:24 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by GDR, posted 10-19-2013 12:51 PM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 1683 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 11 of 176 (709037)
10-19-2013 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by jaywill
10-19-2013 2:01 PM


Re: The Focus is Chapter 53
Bs'd
The above is an abbreviation of the Aramaic term "ba siata desmaya", and that means: "With the help of heaven".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by jaywill, posted 10-19-2013 2:01 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
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Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 1683 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 15 of 176 (709050)
10-19-2013 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by jaywill
10-19-2013 10:42 PM


Re: The Focus is Chapter 53
Bs’d
Behold, my servant shall act wisely; You believe this is JC. You believe JC is god. So God is his own servant?
When God speaks about "His servant", is God then speaking about himself or about somebody else?
Hint: A three year old can come up with the right answer.
his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the children of mankind
When did that happen to JC?
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with sickness When exactly was JC sick?
Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Wasn’t JC a very popular preacher who entered Jerusalem amongst a big crowd of followers?
He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth;
He didn’t open his mouth? "When Jesus said this, one of the officials nearby struck him in the face. "Is this the way you answer the high priest?" he demanded. "If I said something wrong," Jesus replied, "testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?" John 18:22
When he was hanging at the cross he accused God, that is himself; he cried out: Why did I forsake myself?
At the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?" Mark 15:34
He didn’t open his mouth?
for the transgression of my people the plague was upon them
This is a very clear proof it speaks about the Jewish people being punished for their own sins. The plague was upon THEM. Plural. So this is not about a singular person, so this is not about the messiah.
The Hebrew word translated as upon them is lamo The same word lamo is also used in Genesis 9:26-27: God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be THEIR servant."
Deut 32:32; and THEIR clusters are bitter. Literally: For them are bitter clusters.
Deut 32: 35 and their destiny will overtake THEM
Deut 33:2; "The LORD came from Sinai and dawned OVER THEM from Seir;
The word lamo which means for them or upon them is also used in Isaiah 16:4, 26:14+16, 35:8, Psalm 119:165.
Some translations, realizing they cannot get around the plural, translate it as: for the transgression of my people, TO WHOM the stroke was due? Like this it is translated by the NASB, AMP, ASV, and in the footnote of the NIV.
But this is a very forced translation. There is nothing due in verse 8.
He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence
Done no violence? So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. John 2:15
A grave with the wicked? "When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathe'a, named Joseph, who also was a disciple of Jesus. He went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate ordered it to be given to him. And Joseph took the body, and wrapped it in a clean linen shroud, and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn in the rock; and he rolled a great stone to the door of the tomb, and departed " Matt 27:57-60
He was in the tomb of a righteous follower of his, and not in the grave with the wicked.
And with the rich in his death The Hebrew word for death is written in the plural, again indicating it does not speak about a singular person. Unless of course Christianity wants to say that their god died several times. If you say this talks about a whole people, then there is no problem.
But, if you want to say this speaks about the messiah, then you are in trouble.
And of course, this word is mistranslated in about every Christian translation to be found.
Yet it was the will of J-H-W-H to crush him; he has put him to grief; So it was the will of God to crush Himself???
when he makes his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days God makes himself an offering for sin? JC sees his offspring? How is he going to do that? He was never married, he never had any offspring.
He shall prolong his days
God is going to prolong his days when he makes himself an offering for sin? And if he doesn’t, God is not going to prolong his days?
But didn’t God die when he was 30?
when he makes his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring
God needs to make himself an offering in order to be able to forgive his creatures? God first has to be murdered by his creatures, and only then he can forgive them?
Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong God is going to give Himself a portion with the strong? When exactly did JC get that?
It should be clear to everybody that JC is not an option for the servant of Isaiah 53.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by jaywill, posted 10-19-2013 10:42 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by jaywill, posted 10-20-2013 3:23 PM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 1683 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 16 of 176 (709052)
10-20-2013 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by jaywill
10-19-2013 10:42 PM


Re: The Focus is Chapter 53
And Israel is the most frequent called the servant of God.
The issue is not how frequently Israel is called the servant of God.
This does not negate that Isaiah and Cyrus the king of Persia are ALSO refered to God's servant.
Bs'd
And that does not negate the fact that the messiah is NEVER called the servant of God, not in Isaiah, and not in the rest of the Tanach.
How can God be His own servant??
And Isaiah 53 is an exception to the many places where Israel is the servant of God.
A statement for which you can not provide the slightest proof.
Wrong. That is an article of faith, without the slightest proof in the Tanach.
Of course it is a matter of faith. Contrary to what Isaiah 53:1 says, God HAS granted mercy that SOME have believed the report.
You are simply among those who have no believed the report because of no faith -
At least you admit that there is no proof whatsoever that JC is the servant.
And no, I have no faith in JC, just like I have no faith in Muhammed, (and you neither) and no faith in David Koresh.
The Muslims believe that the suffering servant is Muhammed. You can believe anything you want, also that you are abduct by little green men.
But is really ridiculous is that you would regard Israel as being an offering for sin on behalf of Israel. That is contrary to the whole tone of a substitutionary offering for sin provided by One who is innocent and righteous.
There is no "substitutionary offering" in Isaiah 53. What there is there is that Israel is punished for the sins of Israel. As usual. Like in all the rest of the Tanach.
The concept that God must let Himself be murdered by His creatures before He can forgive them THAT is totally ridiculous.
The proof for the servant being Israel is overwhelming.
No it is not overwhelming. And I will continue with reasons that Jesus Christ is by far the more logical interpretation of the prophecy of chapter 53.
Yes it is overwhelming. I'll repeat: We have the fact that Israel is many times called the servant of God in Isaiah. The messiah never.
We have the context speaking about Israel. The messiah is nowhere to be found in the context.
The concept that Israel suffers for the sins of Israel is all over the Tanach.
The concept of God Himself suffering for the sins of Israel is NOWHERE to be found in the Tanach.
Just doesn't exist.
So everything points to Israel.
NOTHING to the messiah.
"By the knowledge of Him, the righteous One, My Servant, will make the manuy righteous. And He will bear their iniquities." (v.11)
The bearing One Himself has to be without sins.
Please tell me where that is written in the Tanach. You are making things up which are nowhere in the Tanach.
Rather a righteous Messiah bearing the sins of many that by knowledge of Him they might be justified and made righteous, fits the facts of the new covenant.
The concept that the messiah must suffer and die in order to bear and erase the sins of the world just doesn't exist in the Tanach.
It is an excuse for your messiah not accomplishing anything, for him not fulfilling the messianic prophecies, and being killed like an ordinary criminal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by jaywill, posted 10-19-2013 10:42 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Eliyahu, posted 10-20-2013 12:11 AM Eliyahu has not replied
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 Message 20 by jaywill, posted 10-20-2013 3:55 PM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 1683 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 17 of 176 (709053)
10-20-2013 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Eliyahu
10-20-2013 12:08 AM


Isaiah 53 speaks about ISRAEL
Bs'd
Somebody please explain to me: When Isaiah speaks about "the servant of God", is he then speaking about God Himself, or about somebody else??

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Eliyahu, posted 10-20-2013 12:08 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 1683 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 22 of 176 (714996)
12-30-2013 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by jaywill
10-20-2013 3:55 PM


Re: The Focus is Chapter 53
He is speaking of One of the "Us" as in Genesis He said "Let US make man in Our image."
Then it says that "God created man in His own image"
Bs'd
Genesis 1:26; "Let us make man" If anybody finds in a text the word "us", would any normal person assume that it refers to one person with a multi-personality disorder? Of course not.
But why then, when Christians see the word "us" in the Bible, do they think that?
Gen 1:26 is used as a 'proof' that there is more than one God, or one God who is not one, eventhough the Bible clearly teaches that there is only one God who is one. and despite the fact that there are several other valid explanations for the plural word "us". One explanation is that it is a majestic plural as used by kings. Another possible explanation is that God was talking to the angels.
Some Christians try to refute the last argument by saying that the angels didn't create. They point to Genesis 1:1; "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." They say: 'God was the creator, and not the angels.' However, it is a given in Jewish law that an emissary is equal to the one who sends him. When a Jewish man marries a woman through an agent, the legal effect is the same as when he marries her personally. A good Biblical example of this is to be found in Genesis 19 where is spoken about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. God sent two angels to destroy the cities, the angels said to Lot in verse 13: "For we are about to destroy this place, because the outcry against its people has become great before the LORD, and the LORD has sent us to destroy it." Upon this Lot says to his sons in law: "Up, get out of this place; for the LORD is about to destroy the city." Lot didn't say: "The angels are going to destroy the city" He said: "The LORD (Y-H-W-H in the Hebrew text) is going to destroy the city". And in verse 29 it is written: "So it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the valley...." So the angels were send by God to destroy the cities, but God is considered to be the one who did it, because He was the one who sent them. So why shouldn't the same hold true for the creation?
But one way or the other, no plural created man. Look in Genesis 5:1; "When God created man ..." In Hebrew this is: "bara Elohiem adam" Here the verb "to create", in Hebrew "bara", is in the singular, indicating clearly that Elohiem who created man is one. The same goes for the very first verse of the Bible: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The word created is here written in the singular; it says "bara". If God was a plural, it should have been "baru".
BUT, back to the pronouns, Y-H-W-H says the following:
Isaiah 44:6 This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
It says "I" am Y-H-W-H. And, as we all know, "I" is singular, and not plural, and therefore no three persons in Y-H-W-H. Otherwise He would have said: "WE are Y-H-W-H."
But no such thing, God says: "I am Y-H-W-H".
No trinity.
Another example of a pronoun:
Nehemiah 9:6 You alone are Y-H-W-H.
As we see, it says that YOU, in the Hebrew singular, not plural are Y-H-W-H.
Again, no YOU, plural, are Y-H-W-H, but YOU singular, are Y-H-W-H.
So no three persons in God.
Another one:
Isaiah 44:6 This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
Clear what? It doesn't say: This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: WE are the first and WE are the last; apart from US there is no God.
No such a thing, it is all SINGULAR.
Another one:
Joel 2:27 Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;
Again, God says: "I am Y-H-W-H", and not "WE are Y-H-W-H" Such a thing simply doesn't exist.
I can go on and on with this, but these examples suffice. There is NO plurality in God.
And the word "us" when God speaks to the angels, does not imply otherwise.
.
.
In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
.
.
God became incarnated as a man. And as the Father took up the emblem of Authority the Son took up the emblem of perfect Submission to Authority.
God is not a man. Saying a man is God is like saying a golden calf is God.
In such He was one of us - a genuine man yet God Himself incarnate. Isaiah 9:6 says that He is called WONDERFUL. We can see why.
Isaiah 9:2-7 "2 The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined. 3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, thou hast increased its joy; they rejoice before thee as with joy at the harvest, as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. 4 For the yoke of his burden, and the staff for his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, thou hast broken as on the day of Mid'ian. 5 For every boot of the tramping warrior in battle tumult and every garment rolled in blood will be burned as fuel for the fire. 6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."
Please take notice of the fact that Isaiah is talking in the past tense: "The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined.|
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government is upon his shoulder, and his name was called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
These are things which had happened already in the days of Isaiah.
If, despite these facts, you still want to apply these verses to JC, than read verse 5, 6, and 7, and see that JC didn't do any of those things. He never ruled on the throne of David, he never had any government on his shoulders, and there never was endless peace over his kingdom.
The same holds true for the verses 6 and 7: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."
All of this doesn't hold true for JC; he never had any government on his shoulder. And also here is spoken in the past tense: "A child is born, a son is given. But most translations give it in the future tense. For instance the RSV, NIV, NAS, ESV, KJV, NIRV, the all say; "His name will be called ....", future tense. However, in the Hebrew text this too is past tense: "His name was called ...." The Hebrew expression here is "wayikra". That is the first word in the book of Leviticus. And all the previously mentioned translations there say: "And the Lord called Mozes ..." Past tense. Exactly the same the word. Isn't that weird? Exactly the same word is used in Genesis 5:1; "And God called the light 'day'" Called. Past tense. Nobody argues with that one. But why then, in Isaiah 9, is it suddenly changed to future tense? The answer is simple: The past tense doesn't fit with the Christian theology, and therefore the Bible translations are corrupted and twisted to fit the Christian religion. Just like that. There is only one solution for this problem: Take a course in Biblical Hebrew. It is more easy then it looks. Then your eyes will be opened and the Christian deception will stare you in the face. And yes, I do sympathize with the poor misguided Christians whom are being led astray by their clergy by means of twisted and corrupted Bible translations. That's the reason why I fulfill my duty of being a light unto the nations and uncovering the Christian deception.
"Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end" "There will be no end", future tense. And this too is WRONG. It is in the Hebrew present tense. I found only one translation which is correct here, and that is Young's Literal Translation.
Why all this stress on the tenses? Isaiah spoke about a king who was living in his days, and therefore JC is out. The king that Isaiah speaks about is Hezekiah, the son of Achaz who got from Isaiah the sign about the young woman (no, not the virgin) who was pregnant and gave birth to the son Immanuel.
The Talmud explains that under the rule of the God fearing Hezekiah the Jewish kingdom rose to great heights, and that's why he was entitled to those impressive titles.
Because of the fact that the name of the son is "Mighty God", (or "God is Mighty", both are possible translations) and "Eternals Father", the Christians deduce that the boy spoken about must have been God.
HOWEVER, a name is only that; a name. A name is not a description of the bearer of that name. An example: Buffalo Bill was not a buffalo. The indian chief Sitting Bull was not a bull.
Many times people in the Bible have in their name the word "God", or the name of God, but that doesn't mean that those people are God. For instance; in Exodus 6:23 is spoken about a man called "Elazar". That means "God is helper", or "Helping God". But that doesn't mean that that man was God.
Exodus 6:24; "Elkanah", that means "God acquired", or "acquiring God". II Samuel 22:19; "Elchanan"; "God is merciful", or "Merciful God". But these men were not God, just like the the child in Isaiah 9 wasn't God.
Apart from that, the Hebrew words "El gibor", in Christian Bibles translated with "Mighty God", can have a different meaning. "El" can mean "God", but it can also mean "judge", "leader", or "mighty man". In Exodus 4:16 God says to Moses that he will be of an elohiem for his brother Aharon. ("elohim" is the longer form of the word "el") This doesn't mean that Moses was a God for Aharon and Aharon started to worship his brother, it meant that Moses would be the leader of Aharon.
In Exodus 21:1-6 is spoken about a slave who after the normal period of servitude ended, doesn't want to leave his master. In that case the owner has to take him to court, where the slave will make a statement that he doesn't want to leave his master, and that he will serve his master until his death. The Hebrew text there says that his master must take him to the "elohim". There the NAS, ASV, ESV, NRSV, RSV, YLT, they all say that his master must take him "to God". However, his master doesn't take him for a ride to heaven, but takes him to the courthouse. Therefore the NIV, KJV, TNIV, and the NIRV, they all say that the master must take him to "the judges".
Even so in Isaiah 9 the word "El" does not necessarily mean "God". Therefore the text in Isaiah 9 is in no way a proof that the child spoken about was God.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 1683 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 67 of 176 (717551)
01-29-2014 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by GDR
01-25-2014 9:19 PM


The resurrection of the Son of God ny N T Wright
The latter is well over 700 pages dedicated to the study of the resurrection from a Biblical and historical standpoint.
Bs'd
We don't need 700 pages to deal with the resurrection, one is enough:
Why do you think that JC was ressurected?
Even in the New Testament there is NOT ONE SINGLE WITNESS of his resurrection. No man saw him get up from the grave and walk away.
Oh, but he appeared to his disciples. Well, in that case, can you explain to me why nobody recognized him? Look in Luke 24:13-35. This speaks about the men on the road to Emmaus. JC met them, but they didn't recognize him.
The same thing happens in John 20:14; "At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus. "Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?" Thinking he was the gardener, she said, ... "
She thought JC was the gardener....
John 21:4 "Early in the morning, Jesus stood on the shore, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus. He called out to them, ..."
And again they didn't recognize him.
Isn't it strange that they didn't recognize the person with whom they were so close for years?
But the NT gives the answer to that strange phenomena. Look in Mark 16:12-13 "Afterward Jesus appeared IN A DIFFERENT FORM to two of them while they were walking in the country."
So it was a person "in a different form" from the previous well known JC who appeared to them, that's why they didn't recognize him.
A person in different form from the old JC, who was not recognized by the people he interacted with for years, only days before, doesn't that sounds like an impostor who is pretending to be the resurrected JC?
That also explains why some of the disciples doubted when the "resurrected JC" appeared to them: "When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted." Matt 28:17.
Can you imagine that the authentic JC appears to you and you still doubt?
Apparently he was not so authentic.
If the disciples, who saw the "resurrected JC" with their own eyes, still doubted, why then do the Christians 2000 years later, who have nothing to go by but stories, don't doubt?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by GDR, posted 01-25-2014 9:19 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-29-2014 12:20 AM Eliyahu has replied
 Message 80 by GDR, posted 02-09-2014 6:11 PM Eliyahu has not replied
 Message 87 by jaywill, posted 09-16-2015 4:01 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 1683 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 70 of 176 (717564)
01-29-2014 7:24 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Dawn Bertot
01-29-2014 12:20 AM


But my friend you are making the same fundamental error GDR is making. The evidence leads us in a certain direction. Does it prove it absolutely? No? But the general evidence is that the NT writers were reliable and correct
Bs'd
The NT shows us a supposed messiah who didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies.
The NT shows us a supposed messiah who didn't even fulfill his own prophecies.
The NT rips Tanach texts which have no bearing on the messiah out of context, mistranslates them, and presents them as "messianic prophecies fulfilled by JC".
The NT brings us an extra man-god who is NOWHERE to be found in the Tanach.
The general evidence is that the NT is not reliable and contradicts the Tanach.
"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.
If you hear it said about one of the towns Y-H-W-H your God is giving you to live in that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, Let us go and worship other gods (gods you have not known), then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to Y-H-W-H your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt, and none of the condemned things are to be found in your hands. Then Y-H-W-H will turn from his fierce anger, will show you mercy, and will have compassion on you. He will increase your numbers, as he promised on oath to your ancestors because you obey Y-H-W-H your God by keeping all his commands that I am giving you today and doing what is right in his eyes."

Deut 13
.
.
.
In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
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.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.
Edited by Eliyahu, : Just because

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-29-2014 12:20 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-29-2014 10:45 PM Eliyahu has replied
 Message 72 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-29-2014 10:59 PM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 1683 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 73 of 176 (717649)
01-30-2014 1:40 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Dawn Bertot
01-29-2014 10:45 PM


Do you think God was trying to decieve Abraham or Joshua when he apeared to them in a form other than that which he actually is?
Do you think that these people did not believe this was actually God when he made these visits to these individuals, in another form than his actual form?
So was God not authentic in these instances?
Bs'd
Nowhere in the Tanach do you see a human being claiming he is God.
God clearly says that He is not a man:
God is not human, that he should lie, Num 23:19
He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a human being, that he should change his mind. 1 Samuel 15:29
For I am God, and not a man the Holy One among you. Hosea 11:9
So when a human being says he is God, you stone him:
"Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?
We are not stoning you for any good work, they replied, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
John 10

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Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-29-2014 10:45 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-01-2014 11:15 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 1683 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 75 of 176 (717827)
02-01-2014 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Dawn Bertot
02-01-2014 11:15 AM


Your original point was that because Jesus appeared in different forms to people, that this made him unauthentic
I pointed out that God did the samething in OT. there was no response to this argument
Bs'd
God can appear anyway He wants. But if a human being wants to make a point, said point being that he stood up from the grave, then he cannot come back as a different person, because then it is clear to everybody that he is not the same person, and that his story about being resurrected is not true.
I next pointed out that the NT boasts the same type of evidence for its reliability as the Old. You avoided this argument and question as well
The Tanach is accepted by both Christian and Jew as being inspired by God, so I don't have to proof that the Tanach is from God. What I'm doing is proving that the NT is not from God. This by showing that JC was a false prophet, showing that the messianic prophecies are not fulfilled, and other inconsistencies in the NT.
The passages you quoted have nothing to do with whether God can represent himself as a man, AS HE CLEARLY DID.
God showed himself to some people as a man, sitting on His throne, but never as a human, born from a woman, who's diapers had to be changed, etc.
he passages you quoted are simply stating that God in his entire essence is not like man, not that he cannot represent himself in human form, or come in the form of human
God can do whatever he wants, also coming as a human, but He didn't.
So your indirect argument that God never came as a human being is contradicted both by the examples in the Old and New testaments
The Tanach says that God IS NOT a human.
The NT says he was a human. So also on that point the NT contradicts the Tanach.
Some prophets in the Tanach saw the figure of a human, but God never was a human.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-01-2014 11:15 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
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Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 1683 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


(1)
Message 85 of 176 (759818)
06-15-2015 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by arachnophilia
02-09-2014 10:01 PM


Re: christians: don't read the OT!
Bs'd
The facts of the matter are of course that JC didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies, and that therefore the was not only not the Jewish messiah, but he was also not the Biblical messiah.
As a matter of fact, he was not a messiah at all.
A messiah is an anointed one.
Messiah comes from the Hebrew word 'meshiach' which means 'anointed one' It was the custom to anoint kings with oil before they came to power. There were already many anointed kings in Jewish history. Read for instance I Samuel 9:27 to10:1; Here Saul is anointed by Samuel the prophet. And thereby he became a messiah, an anointed one, See Samuel 11:13 up to 12:3: Here in verse 3 king Saul is called G.ds anointed, in the Hebrew 'meshiach'. So also king Saul was a messiah. Look in I Samuel 16:12-13, here the prophet Samuel anoints David, the Hebrew verb for anointing is 'mashach', and he becomes an anointed one, as we can read in II Samuel 23:1; "David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed (in the Hebrew 'meshiach') of the G.d of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said; "
I Kings 1:39; "And Zadok the priest took an horn of oil out of the tabernacle, and anointed (Hebrew verb 'mashach') Solomon. And they blew the trumpet, and all the people said; G.d save king Solomon." Also Solomon was an anointed one, or messiah: II Chronicles 6:42, here king Solomon prays: "O Lord turn not away the face of thine anointed, " In the Hebrew: 'meshiach'.
So now we know what is a messiah: An anointed king.
So now we understand JC was no messiah whatsoever.

"According to scientific rules, in order for critics to disprove the Torah codes, they would have to find fatal flaws in each of the six papers presenting a different approach and a different code. This happened five years ago, and to date not a single flaw was found in any of these papers. Therefore, for all intent and purposes, the Torah codes have been scientifically proven, and the debate is over."
Harold Gans, mathematician and professional code breaker

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by arachnophilia, posted 02-09-2014 10:01 PM arachnophilia has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by jaywill, posted 09-15-2015 7:47 PM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 1683 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 88 of 176 (787610)
07-19-2016 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by jaywill
09-15-2015 7:47 PM


Re: christians: don't read the OT!
Jesus Christ is still in the ongoing process of prophecy fulfillment.
Bs"d
But so far he didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies.
When Moses came to the Hebrews they also doubted before the plagues that he was the deliverer sent by God. After the Exodus they also had episodes of doubt. They wanted on occasion to stone him and secure another leader to take them BACK to Egypt.
The Messianic King reigns unto eternity, forever. It is not too surprising that in the unfolding of His kingdom some doubt because of the outworking of God's purposes.
Fact of the matter is and remains: JC did NOT fulfill the messianic prophecies.
Yeshua, the Lord Jesus Christ surely IS the Anointed One and the Messiah.
How is that possible when he never was anointed to be a king by a priest and/or a prophet?
I suggest that you read again the story of Joseph in Genesis. It is pointing to the REAL Joseph who is Jesus the Son of God.
The story of Joseph has of course zero pertinence to JC.
Let's get back to the subject of this thread;
What proofs can you give from the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah?
.
.
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.

"According to scientific rules, in order for critics to disprove the Torah codes, they would have to find fatal flaws in each of the six papers presenting a different approach and a different code. This happened five years ago, and to date not a single flaw was found in any of these papers. Therefore, for all intent and purposes, the Torah codes have been scientifically proven, and the debate is over."
Harold Gans, mathematician and professional code breaker

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by jaywill, posted 09-15-2015 7:47 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by jaywill, posted 08-23-2016 9:02 PM Eliyahu has not replied

  
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