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Author Topic:   Creationist = Anti-Environmentalist?
jar
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 31 of 111 (426195)
10-05-2007 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Hyroglyphx
10-05-2007 4:13 PM


Re: Creationists on the plunder
The same people saying its anthropogenically caused are the same people who predicted the next ice age.
And Global Warming would likely result in, if not an Ice Age, at least the equivalent of the "Little Ice Age."
Yes, we want the rapture. But it doesn't mean there is a single thing that anyone can do to expedite the process.
Of course you cannot bring on the rapture, but you most certainly can bring on Armageddon.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-05-2007 4:13 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2745 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 32 of 111 (426196)
10-05-2007 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Hyroglyphx
10-05-2007 4:13 PM


Re: Creationists on the plunder
The same people saying its anthropogenically caused are the same people who predicted the next ice age.
Actually, no. Al Gore's Inc Truth is a movie version of a slide show he's been giving for over a decade. If you want to harken back to the 70's, I'm sure you'll find a meteorologist making your claim. That, however, is NOT the same thing as people 5 years ago claiming that there is no global warming.
Does the same go for blue states opposing all things conservative?
Care to make a correlation?
Then the same applies to the opposite end of the spectrum too. Noam Chomsky, one of the biggest critics of the US military and capitalism is in the top 2% of wealth and has worked on numerous programs with the military. Or bands like Rage Against the Machine who profit from the very thing they denounce. The irony is delicious.
It may be delicious but it's not relavent. The point was that these people are willing at accept what their authority figures tell them. The people you list clearly are not passively accepting false information from authority figures, they are simply benefiting from a capitalist system.
By the way, who better to know the problems of a system than the people who have proven that they can exploit it.
Yes, we want the rapture. But it doesn't mean there is a single thing that anyone can do to expedite the process.
You may want to tell your brethren. US' political relationship with Isreal is driven largely by fundamentalists who, quite frankly, aren't in it for the benefit of the Jews. Remember, the Jews are going to be left behind.
Being that I am a fundamentalist
Okay, let's test the hypothesis. What's your position on Global Warming?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-05-2007 4:13 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 10-05-2007 4:38 PM Nuggin has replied
 Message 37 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-05-2007 5:59 PM Nuggin has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 33 of 111 (426198)
10-05-2007 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Nuggin
10-05-2007 4:32 PM


Re: Creationists on the plunder
You also need to know that the "Rapture" is one of those things with almost no Biblical support, and really shaky support at that. It's another of those ideas that found support as a plot line to sell books, videos and later CDs to gullible Christians that will buy anything.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Nuggin, posted 10-05-2007 4:32 PM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Nuggin, posted 10-05-2007 5:03 PM jar has not replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2745 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 34 of 111 (426207)
10-05-2007 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by jar
10-05-2007 4:38 PM


Re: Creationists on the plunder
to sell books, videos and later CDs to gullible Christians that will buy anything.
Especially if the key concept is "you are special and everyone else is going to get punished an envy you."
Always the punishment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 10-05-2007 4:38 PM jar has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 35 of 111 (426221)
10-05-2007 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Hyroglyphx
10-05-2007 4:13 PM


Re: Creationists on the plunder
The same people saying its anthropogenically caused are the same people who predicted the next ice age.
And you can name and quote them?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-05-2007 4:13 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 664 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 36 of 111 (426225)
10-05-2007 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Hyroglyphx
10-05-2007 12:58 PM


Re: Creationists on the plunder
nemesis_juggernaut writes:
I think that many creationists simply believe that its a natural cyclical occurrence, rather than buying in to the political spin.
Even IF global warming isn't caused by us, would using less fossil fuel be such a bad thing? It isn't like there are no other ill effects.
It seems to me that "political spin" is just an excuse for yet another attack on science.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
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Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-05-2007 12:58 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-05-2007 9:21 PM ringo has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 111 (426232)
10-05-2007 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Nuggin
10-05-2007 4:32 PM


Re: Creationists on the plunder
Al Gore's Inc Truth is a movie version of a slide show he's been giving for over a decade.
Ah, right... And lets not forget that he invented the internet too.
If you want to harken back to the 70's, I'm sure you'll find a meteorologist making your claim.
Yes, meteorologists and climatologists who actively work in that field were predicting this new ice age. Why? Because it was statistically colder than in previous decades/centuries.
That, however, is NOT the same thing as people 5 years ago claiming that there is no global warming.
When people say there is no global warming, I suspect they mean that the earth isn't heating up because of anything humans have done. And if it is, the Industrial Revolution is probably the largest contributor to that dilemma.
quote:
Does the same go for blue states opposing all things conservative?
Care to make a correlation?
Abortion. Illegal immigration. War policies. Greenhouse gases. Walmart. Capitalism. Healthcare. Just to name a few. Take your pick. I'm asking, if you get to make sweeping allegations, can I?
It may be delicious but it's not relavent.
It is if it nicely illustrates your willing to turn a blind eye to your own bias.
The point was that these people are willing at accept what their authority figures tell them.
Yes, and my point is that the Left is willingly to blindly follow theirs. So what makes one better than the other?
The people you list clearly are not passively accepting false information from authority figures, they are simply benefiting from a capitalist system.
No, they are the ones spreading the propaganda.
By the way, who better to know the problems of a system than the people who have proven that they can exploit it.
Exploit it by making millions of dollars, all the while bitching about people that make millions of dollars? What did they prove? That capitalism works?
US' political relationship with Isreal is driven largely by fundamentalists who, quite frankly, aren't in it for the benefit of the Jews. Remember, the Jews are going to be left behind.
The government sides with Israel because its a flourishing Democracy, proven to be an ally. What does one have to do with the other?
Okay, let's test the hypothesis. What's your position on Global Warming?
I believe a warming trend is occuring. I believe a nominal percentage is due to humans. I believe the majority of it is part of a natural cycle. I believe this hype is an unfortunate causualty of politics.

"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Nuggin, posted 10-05-2007 4:32 PM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by crashfrog, posted 10-05-2007 6:24 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 41 by Chiroptera, posted 10-05-2007 6:40 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 43 by Nuggin, posted 10-05-2007 7:35 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 44 by Nuggin, posted 10-05-2007 7:38 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 69 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-06-2007 12:44 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 111 (426236)
10-05-2007 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Nuggin
10-05-2007 2:57 PM


Re: the big survey
Yet you doubt what I and others on the thread have reported seeing. You want me to present some survey confirming this, as though I personally, since yesterday, funded and conducted a nationwide survey from my own pocket.
Yes, I do doubt it. It is anecdotal at best. I have asked you again and again and again to show me some evidence.
You have not. Any study, almost anything in a scientific framework that shows YECs have no or little environmental awareness or a desire to keep the world in good shape will do.
For the fifth time, I think, please show me your evidence!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Nuggin, posted 10-05-2007 2:57 PM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Nuggin, posted 10-05-2007 7:43 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1719 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 39 of 111 (426239)
10-05-2007 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Hyroglyphx
10-05-2007 5:59 PM


Re: Creationists on the plunder
Yes, meteorologists and climatologists who actively work in that field were predicting this new ice age.
A few were, yes, for some pretty good reasons - atmospheric particulates had skyrocketed, and we know they reflect sunlight back into space, cooling the Earth.
Nobody at the time knew precisely how much reflection, and nobody knew how intense the "greenhouse effect" was, and so a few people in the media predicted an ice age, a few people in Hollywood predicted global warming (see "Soylent Green"), all from a couple of papers that essentially said "it could get warmer, it could get colder, we don't know for sure because we haven't developed any good models yet."
Now, some 30 years later, we have more than 10 models that are consistent with more than 1600 years of inferred climate data as well as with each other, and every single one has successfully predicted the warming trend that we're in the middle of.
The reality of the history of global warming is nothing like you describe. There was maybe one article in Newsweek that "predicted an ice age." There was no consensus on the issue, then.
There is one, now, based on reams and reams of data and computation.
When people say there is no global warming, I suspect they mean that the earth isn't heating up because of anything humans have done.
Sure. It's all just coincidence that the Earth is warming at the exact same time that human CO2 production exceeds multiple Mt. Pinatubo eruptions every single year, and at the exact same time that the sun is in a decade-long period of cooling.
Yes, and my point is that the Left is willingly to blindly follow theirs.
That's actually not true. Bob Altemeyer has done extensive work on the right-wing authoritarian personality, and his work abundantly proves that America's right wing is typified by followers who prize obedience and strength, collectivism and national identity, and authoritarian aggression over individualism and individual conscience (which are more associated with the left.)
It's not to say that you couldn't find someone who was a "left-wing authoritarian" in the United States, but it's instructive to note that while Altemeyer based his research on interviews with hundreds of persons, many of whom were identified as right-wing authoritarians, a single example of a left-wing authoritarian has never, to my knowledge, been found.
The government sides with Israel because its a flourishing Democracy, proven to be an ally.
I was just thinking about this today. Theoretically America's relationship with Israel is so relentlessly pro-Israel so that we can have a democratic ally in the Middle East.
What, exactly, do we stand to gain by that? We're already staging our operations out of Germany, not Israel. Israel supplied absolutely zero troops in any function as part of our actions in Iraq and Afghanistan.
So it's not entirely clear what we gain by our support of Israel, particularly now that Iraq is practically the 51st state (containing the largest US embassy ever built). The idea that our support comes purely from the converging interests of the American Jewish Israel lobby and American Christians is not at all far-fetched, as far as I can see. There's certainly no secular justification.
I believe the majority of it is part of a natural cycle.
What cycle?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-05-2007 5:59 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by petrophysics1, posted 10-05-2007 6:39 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 47 by petrophysics1, posted 10-05-2007 8:16 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 61 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-05-2007 10:59 PM crashfrog has replied

  
petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 111 (426240)
10-05-2007 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by crashfrog
10-05-2007 6:24 PM


Re: Creationists on the plunder
Sure. It's all just coincidence that the Earth is warming at the exact same time that human CO2 production exceeds multiple Mt. Pinatubo eruptions every single year, and at the exact same time that the sun is in a decade-long period of cooling.
Crashfrog, I need an exact reference which verifies each part of this statement.
Thanks
P.S. Please make sure it is a scientific one not some media BS

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by crashfrog, posted 10-05-2007 6:24 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 111 (426242)
10-05-2007 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Hyroglyphx
10-05-2007 5:59 PM


Re: Creationists on the plunder
Yes, meteorologists and climatologists who actively work in that field were predicting this new ice age. Why? Because it was statistically colder than in previous decades/centuries.
Sure. And one time scholars thought the stars and planets revolved about the earth. Now they think that the earth and other planets orbit the sun.
The obvious conclusion is that no one really knows whatsoever how the planets move.

In many respects, the Bible was the world's first Wikipedia article. -- Doug Brown (quoted by Carlin Romano in The Chronicle Review)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-05-2007 5:59 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by petrophysics1, posted 10-05-2007 7:27 PM Chiroptera has replied
 Message 68 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-06-2007 11:58 AM Chiroptera has replied

  
petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 111 (426249)
10-05-2007 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Chiroptera
10-05-2007 6:40 PM


Re: Creationists on the plunder
You ought to be suspended for this and not just because it's off topic

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Chiroptera, posted 10-05-2007 6:40 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2745 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 43 of 111 (426250)
10-05-2007 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Hyroglyphx
10-05-2007 5:59 PM


Re: Creationists on the plunder
When people say there is no global warming, I suspect they mean that the earth isn't heating up because of anything humans have done.
That may be what you suspect, but you are flat wrong. That's what those people are saying right now. Previously they were saying "There is NO global warming". These, incindentally, are the same people that are offering $10,000 to any climatologist who'll publish any paper disputing Global warming.
Abortion. Illegal immigration. War policies. Greenhouse gases. Walmart. Capitalism. Healthcare. Just to name a few.
That isn't a correlation. That's a list. And, honestly, it's not a very good one. Are you suggesting that the people in Red States don't have Walmarts? That the Conservatives don't have a "War policy" or aren't participating in "capitalism"?
It is if it nicely illustrates your willing to turn a blind eye to your own bias.
What bias? I start a thread on Creationism/Anti-Enviormentalism and you try to dispute me by naming someone who is Anti-War & wealthy. Last time I checked, neither of those are on topic.
Who's got the bias here?
my point is that the Left is willingly to blindly follow
If that was your point you failed spectacularly in your attempt to make it.
they are the ones spreading the propaganda.
Firstly, you don't want this debate to be about propaganda. Have you seen the "news reports" shot and editted by the administration? Secondly, what propaganda are you alledging that Rage Against the Machine is spreading? Maybe I'm not on the mailing list, but I haven't heard anything about the Rage Against the Machine thinktank issuing bullet points which are then parrotted on Fox News verbatim.
What did they prove? That capitalism works?
You tell me? You're the one that brought them up, off topic.
The government sides with Israel because its a flourishing Democracy, proven to be an ally.
So is Canada, but we don't give them weapons and billions of dollars in aid.
I'm going to take your last bit as a new post, since much of what we are discussing above is off topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-05-2007 5:59 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-06-2007 1:24 AM Nuggin has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2745 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 44 of 111 (426251)
10-05-2007 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Hyroglyphx
10-05-2007 5:59 PM


NJ's Global Warming position.
I believe a warming trend is occuring. I believe a nominal percentage is due to humans. I believe the majority of it is part of a natural cycle. I believe this hype is an unfortunate causualty of politics.
So, you believe that human activity is contributing to Global Warming.
Do you also agree that climate change could have significantly troublesome results for the US? (Drought, water levels rising, increased storm activity)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-05-2007 5:59 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2745 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 45 of 111 (426252)
10-05-2007 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by petrophysics1
10-05-2007 6:13 PM


Re: the big survey
For the fifth time, I think
This part I agree with. It does seem like this is your fifth time thinking.
Here's my initial quote:
This has always puzzled me. It seems that there is a correlation between Creationism and people who are anti-environmentalist.
That is, I see a lot of people who believe in Creationism and are also Global Warming deniers.
Or supporters of Creationism, but oppose to the Endangered Species protection.
One needs look no further than the current administration for examples.
You may notice that I said, "it seems" and "I see" indicatiing that this impression is my own. That it's not based on empirical data.
This is what I have noticed from the Fundamentalists that I have dealt with.
It also happens to be what several other posters have noticed from the fundamentalist they have dealt with.
Meanwhile, you yourself said that you haven't dealt with any fundamentalists.
So, given that I am reporting my first hand experieces, that others here are reporting their first hand experiences, and, that you have claimed to have no data of your own, it begs the question -
Who are you to be asking for information in the first place?
If you have nothing to contribute here, go troll someplace else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by petrophysics1, posted 10-05-2007 6:13 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
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