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Author Topic:   Are we all descendants of Adam and Eve?
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 316 of 376 (710586)
11-07-2013 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 314 by jaywill
11-07-2013 4:22 AM


My referring to what someone said in discussions on the Internet about Darwin is no different from those referring me to what someone else said on talkorigins.org (?)
It's very different. Talkorigins.org content is written by people known to be knowledgeable in the field, is "peer-reviewed" and edited by the participants in the talk.origins newsgroup, and typically contains references for further investigation.
Of course the ultimate test is whether the content the content itself is verifiably correct.

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 317 of 376 (710590)
11-07-2013 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 314 by jaywill
11-07-2013 4:22 AM


Creo revisionism of reality
My referring to what someone said in discussions on the Internet about Darwin is no different from those referring me to what someone else said on talkorigins.org (?)
Are you really that freaking clueless or are you intentionally misrepresenting things?
If you actually looked at the talkorigins post you would see that what is said actually has references and people use their actual names. Not unsupported assertions by someone using a pseudonym.
There is a huge difference. You know it. The difference makes you look foolish so you pretend there is no difference and proceed to make yourself look more foolish. Keep up the good work.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 318 of 376 (710591)
11-07-2013 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 314 by jaywill
11-07-2013 4:22 AM


I cannot detect anywhere in Genesis or elsewhere where it speaks of Adam and the clock stops and the reader is lifted up into some philosophic mythical realm in which Adam as history is made fuzzy
The fact that you 'cannot detect' something surely does not suggest that the something does not exist.
You are talking about a Book that describes the placement of the sun and moon, and the populating of the entire world with life in the span of a few paragraphs. And even with that, the story, despite describing a continuity of genealogy, has obvious gaps. Where did Enoch or Cain find wives? How did the population of earth restore itself from eight people in time to build the pyramids which are nearly contemporaneous with the flood?
Even a literal reading tells of Genesis tells us that the events occurring after Adam dies spanned thousands of years. Yet you would tell us that there is no fuzzy history involved.
How much history is simply not described in the first two dozen verses of Exodus? I imagine your answer would be that you see nothing missing.
I don't see how anyone can make anything out of what you say you find or don't find in your reading. You say you can find support for the doctrine of Original Sin in the Bible. But we see that you find that which you seek in what you read and you see nothing that contradicts what you seek to avoid.
I don't take seriously that Evolution thinking has never had any room for concepts of race superiority / inferiority.
If correct, that would make 'Evolution thinking' rather than the Theory of Evolution, not unlike 'Biblical thinking'. And that kinda makes what you take seriously, rather unimportant.
And in any event, we know for a fact that your opinion was not formed from any knowledge of what Darwin wrote in Origin of Species. You formed your opinion knowing nothing about what you rail against.
The flow of history from events in the life of Adam and his wife is rather seamless down to Abraham.
Sure jaywill.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 319 of 376 (710600)
11-07-2013 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 315 by Tangle
11-07-2013 5:09 AM


Nit picking
Being pedantic:
Whilst you're reading it bear in mind that Darwin didn't invent evolution, he discovered it.
Darwin didn't discover evolution. That is occured was understood by many for decades prior to he and Wallace.
What D and W worked out was an explanation of how it could occur -- a model, a theory in the full scientific meaning of the word.

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Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 320 of 376 (710603)
11-07-2013 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 314 by jaywill
11-07-2013 4:22 AM


Will you jump off the cliff?
jaywill writes:
Whoever said there is nothing about racism in the Theory of Evolution is acting as if there is a monolithic statement somewhere like a creedal formulate.
There is nothing about racism in the Theory of Evolution.
A person can, however, use aspects of the Theory of Evolution to try and support some sort of racism. Although it will just look silly and ridiculous.
Like this:
There is nothing about racism in noting how black people are generally stronger/faster than white people.
A person can, however, use aspects of this fact to try and support some sort of racism. Although it will just look silly and ridiculous.
People are capable of talking about pretty much whatever they want.
But just because someone says it doesn't make it valid. That's generally a lesson taught to children in grade 2...

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 321 of 376 (710604)
11-07-2013 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 319 by NosyNed
11-07-2013 9:59 AM


Re: Nit picking
NosyNed writes:
Darwin didn't discover evolution
Well sure. The idea that organisms could change had been around for centuries, but it wasn't a common understanding. Like you say, Darwin put it all together; the idea of descent with modification and the mechanism for it, along with a great wadge of evidence all in a popular, but still scientific, book.
It is important to note that Darwin himself recognized that others had discovered natural selection at least in basic outline before (and after) he had. He did not avoid sharing credit to the extent that it was due. In light of this history, one could argue that because natural selection as a mechanism had been proposed by several authors that it would have been discovered and recognized as important eventually, even without Darwin's input -- and, indeed, it probably would have, as would Newton's laws of motion, Einstein's theory of relativity, and other fundamental principles describing the natural world. On the other hand, the idea had been around for at least six decades before Darwin published the Origin, and it was not until someone of Darwin's genius developed the idea that evolution assumed its position as the underlying theme of all biology.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 322 of 376 (710605)
11-07-2013 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 314 by jaywill
11-07-2013 4:22 AM


My referring to what someone said in discussions on the Internet about Darwin is no different from those referring me to what someone else said on talkorigins.org
You are trying to claim that the theory of evolution leads to genocide and racism. That is a lie. Quoting someone spreading a lie on a website does not stop it from being a lie.
My main purpose here was to study the Bible. The Bible reveals Adam and Eve as the parents of all of us.
The problem is that you are making claims about biology and the reality outside of the Bible. The map is not the territory.

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 323 of 376 (710607)
11-07-2013 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 314 by jaywill
11-07-2013 4:22 AM


I notice Darwin constantly refers to native peoples as "savages".
"Savage" is a cultural condition, not a race.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 324 of 376 (710609)
11-07-2013 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 314 by jaywill
11-07-2013 4:22 AM


jaywill writes:
I cannot detect anywhere in Genesis or elsewhere where it speaks of Adam and the clock stops and the reader is lifted up into some philosophic mythical realm in which Adam as history is made fuzzy.
How did you fail to detect the talking snake? There's nothing historically fuzzy about it. It couldn't read more like fiction if it had a flashing neon sign that said "Fiction! Fiction! Fiction!"

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 325 of 376 (710610)
11-07-2013 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 323 by Coyote
11-07-2013 10:50 AM


Coyote writes:
"Savage" is a cultural condition, not a race.
"Savages' was a common description of all sorts of aborigional people even when I was growing up. All the comic books depicted native Africans as savages.
Native Americans was a term I don't recall hearing until fairly modern times - they were red indians when I was a kid and they were universally called savages.
John the Savage in Brave New World just sprang into my head
JOHN THE SAVAGE
the illicit son of the Director and Linda. He was born and reared on the Savage Reservation ("Malpais") after Linda was unwittingly left behind by her errant lover. John the Savage is an outsider both on the Reservation - where the ignorant natives still practise marriage, natural birth, family life and religion - and the ostensibly civilised Brave New World: a totalitarian welfare-state based on principles of stability and happiness, albeit happiness of a shallow and insipid nature. The Savage has read nothing but The Complete Works of William Shakespeare. He quotes them extensively and, for the most part, aptly, though his allusion to "Brave New World" [Miranda's words in The Tempest] takes on a darker and bitterly ironic resonance as the novel unfolds. John the Savage is intensely moral. He is also somewhat nave. In defiance of BNW's social norms, he falls romantically in love with Lenina, but spurns her premature sexual advances. After his mother Linda's death, the Savage becomes ever more disillusioned with utopian society. Its technological wonders and soulless consumerism are no substitute for individual freedom, human dignity and personal integrity. He debates passionately and eruditely with World Controller Mustapha Mond on the competing merits of primitivism versus the World State. After his spontaneous bid to stir revolt among the lower castes has failed, the Savage retreats to an old abandoned lighthouse, whips himself in remorse for his sins, and gloomily cultivates his garden. But he is hounded by reporters and hordes of intrusive brave new worlders. Guilt-ridden, the Savage finally hangs himself after - we are given to infer - he has taken the soma he so despises and succumbed to an orgiastic debauch.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 326 of 376 (710612)
11-07-2013 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 324 by ringo
11-07-2013 10:56 AM


as well the laughable god character
There is also the dolt of a god in the story that should be a clue that the story is not about creation, not about god but about mankind.
But to return to the story, of course we are not all descended from Adam and Eve. Adam and Eves sons found wives and so there were contemporary women outside the A&E family group and if there were girls outside the A&E family group there were parents outside the A&E family group.
To claim that we are all descended from Adam and Eve (who should really be Steve since it is just a clone) is just another example of misrepresenting and perverting the Bible stories.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 327 of 376 (710619)
11-07-2013 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by jar
11-07-2013 11:11 AM


Re: as well the laughable god character
erased.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 328 of 376 (710620)
11-07-2013 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by ringo
11-07-2013 10:56 AM


How did you fail to detect the talking snake? There's nothing historically fuzzy about it. It couldn't read more like fiction if it had a flashing neon sign that said "Fiction! Fiction! Fiction!"
The speaking serpent -
Now some will see flashing lights "Fiction, Fiction, Fiction". But others see "Supernatural, Supernatural, Supernatural".
What I see is that God has purposely done or allowed things to occur in the beginning of human history so that all could understand that our beginnings here on this planet are ROOTED in the supernatural.
Now I sympathize with some who at first glance take this account to read like a comic book. But I eventually realized that the simplicity of the story should not be mistaken for naivete.
There is too much more realism and even technical detail in the five books of Moses to suspicion Moses of being too simple minded to realize the atypical characteristics of the account. Is this the same writer describing the measurements of the tabernacle like it was an Microsoft operating system in minute technical details?
I regard the account as very wise of God. To communicate to the maximum number of people in all times, cultures, and places on earth through different millennia, He has to get through some basic universal aspects of man's origins.
1.) In the origin of man there was a counter intelligence operating to derail the purpose of God.
2.) In the origin of man though he was placed in a paradise situation there was nevertheless something evil left over against which man was to be on guard.
3.) In the origin of man all man's troubles came from the source of disbelieving the WORDS of God to man - words of preparation for man's existence.
4.) In the origin of man, man had a free choice to either listen to God or listen to one who was opposed to God. An opposer who sought to include humanity in its opposition party against God.
5.) A WAY, any WAY other than God's way will lead to sin and death.
I do not understand everything about this speaking serpent. But I notice that very many miracles of the Bible come in matching pairs. It is as if God is saying "That's right. You heard Me right - a talking serpent. And to match that perculiar matter here in Numbers I give you another miracle of a talking ass, Balaam's ass."
The miracles of the Bible often come in pairs as a dual match. Ie. Like Joshua's long day with Hezekiah's sun dial moving backwards.
My opinion is that the Creator and God of creation is caused the initialization of human life on earth to be accompanied with obviously artypical miraculous details. The greatest number of people spanning the greatest span of mental ages, can see something of man's origins being grounded in supernatural matters on this earth.
A last word. In the case of the pair of unusual astronomical occurrences ( Joshua's long day and Hezekiah's back moving sun dial) it surprises me that on this side of Albert Einstein's science we would think these as impossible.
Why couldn't God cause a space - time warping object to enter the solar system doing weird things with the curvature of space and sunlight ? This side of the discovery of black holes I don't think these astronomical phenomenon would be hard for God to orchestrate for His own purposes.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 332 by ringo, posted 11-08-2013 11:47 AM jaywill has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 329 of 376 (710621)
11-07-2013 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 327 by jaywill
11-07-2013 2:08 PM


Re: as well the laughable god character
You really haven't read the Bible have you?
The god character in Genesis 2 is not very bright is he?
Read the story.
In the Gen 2&3 story the god character makes a little mud figure and then animates it and sticks it in a garden as the gardener.
The he realizes he didn't make a helpmeet for the critter and is clueless of what is needed so he brings in all the different animals to the gardener and gets him to try them on.
Come on.
You gotta laugh at that character. "Hey Adam, did you get lucky? Yeah, I know blind dates suck but I know this she-goat that is outta this garden. Or do you prefer something like a tigress? No? Man, you are really hard to please. I suppose you want someone just like you? Well, tell you what, go to sleep and I'll make you a Clone of Your Own. ... (while Adam sleeps we hear god singing ...)
quote:
Oh, give me a clone
Of my own flesh and bone
With its Y chromosome changed to X.
And after it's grown,
Then my own little clone
Will be of the opposite sex.
 
Clone, clone of my own,
With its Y chromosome changed to X.
And when I'm alone
With my own little clone
We will both think of nothing but sex.
 
Oh, give me a clone,
Is my sorrowful moan,
A clone that is wholly my own.
And if she's X-X,
And the feminine sex,
Oh, what fun we will have when we're prone.
 
Clone, clone of my own,
With its Y chromosome changed to X.
And when I'm alone
With my own little clone
We will both think of nothing but sex.
Edited by jar, : fix stage directions

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 330 of 376 (710630)
11-07-2013 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 328 by jaywill
11-07-2013 2:36 PM


What I see is that God has purposely done or allowed things to occur in the beginning of human history so that all could understand that our beginnings here on this planet are ROOTED in the supernatural.
What evidence do you have that what you claim to see is actually real?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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