Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Are Atheists Mentally Ill
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 31 of 117 (705305)
08-26-2013 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Jon
08-26-2013 2:33 AM


Re: Short Summary
Jon writes:
What purpose is there to life besides being happy?
Life's purpose is to make more life.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Jon, posted 08-26-2013 2:33 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Jon, posted 08-26-2013 10:32 AM Tangle has replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1024 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


(1)
Message 32 of 117 (705314)
08-26-2013 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Percy
08-25-2013 8:36 AM


Re: Listing the Issues
It *is* well known that religiosity declines with increasing income and education, and I *am* surprised that you didn't know that.
It is well known, yes, but is it, in fact, true? I also tried googling, and found little evidence either way. There is much on correlations between national GDP and religiosity, but very little on whether this holds true at an individual level.
I only found one study which compared the religious affiliation of individuals with their income, for which I can only find second hand reports (like this from NYT, not the original data. This one doesn't give religion vs. non-religion, but breaks it down into religious affiliation, one of which is secular. It also only reports the percentage of households with income over $75,000.
Now, in this study there are slightly more rich secular households than the national average, but only slightly more, so the correlation must be weak. A far higher percentage of Jews, Hindus and Episcopalians are wealthy.
So, commonly known fact, but if you want to claim as actually being well-supported rather than one of the many things that people know without evidence, you'll need to show us something.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Percy, posted 08-25-2013 8:36 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Percy, posted 08-26-2013 10:09 AM caffeine has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 33 of 117 (705331)
08-26-2013 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by marc9000
08-25-2013 8:31 PM


Re: Listing the Issues
Hi Marc,
Religiosity does decline with increasing income and education, but you won't be able to reconcile this with the statistics if you don't understand them. It *is* anomalous that the US as a country is both religious and affluent when compared with other countries, but it is as true in the US as it is around the rest of the world that the religiosity of individuals declines with increasing income and education.
Your tendency to make nation-wide generalizations based upon your own local observations is also leading you astray.
Because as I said, it doesn't make sense that those who earn more would generally politically favor the politics that would redistribute (take away from them) more of what they earn.
It makes a lot of sense when you consider that they understand that what's really important is living in a society where desperate need isn't forcing their fellow citizens into poverty and degradation. Sharing the wealth means, for example, walking out your door and being greeted by pleasant hellos instead of beggars.
Concerning worldview again, you can't seem to make your case without misstating facts. Science makes no claims for which it has no evidence, which isn't true of flat-Earthers, Earth-is-the-center-of-the-universe-ers, and creationists. That science is in some kind of panic about the origin of life is just a creationist fantasy.
Other things being equal, being a participating member of a social group confers health benefits. That's what the statistics show and no one denies this. But when I say "other things being equal," that means that elements like wealth and education have been factored out of the statistics. It is important to understand that the statistics mean that the religious affluent are better off than the more secular affluent, and that the religious poor are better off than the more secular poor, but it definitely doesn't mean that the religious poor are better off than the secular affluent. Income, wealth and education are simply overwhelming factors.
So if you're poor and a genie offers you religiosity or wealth as a means to a longer life, choose wealth because it has the bigger impact. And to go back to your country-level comparison, while the US may be anomalous as a nation both religious and affluent, it also has a lower life expectancy than countries much less religious, such as Canada, Australia and most of Europe, and this is how the correlation between decreasing religiosity with increasing income and education manifests itself.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Minor correction.
Edited by Percy, : Correct the correction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by marc9000, posted 08-25-2013 8:31 PM marc9000 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 34 of 117 (705339)
08-26-2013 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by caffeine
08-26-2013 8:03 AM


Re: Listing the Issues
Hi Caffeine,
Marc is having trouble finding statistical support because he doesn't understand statistics, but I don't see why you should have any problems. Try this paper:
Secularization, higher education and religiosity
"This paper examines the secularization thesis in terms of the relationship between level of education and various measures of religiosity. National data indicate a negative relationship: the most educated are the least religious."
Or this one:
Religious participation and income
"The relationship between religion and income has been explored in several studies. In this paper, we extend this inquiry by arguing that religious participation, through its effects on preferences and net earnings potential, reduces participants’ incomes."
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by caffeine, posted 08-26-2013 8:03 AM caffeine has seen this message but not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 35 of 117 (705341)
08-26-2013 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by marc9000
08-25-2013 8:31 PM


Re: Listing the Issues
New York
The ghettos of New York are filled with religious people. In those areas there is poverty, uneducated people and a strong faith in God and community from the older people.
I don't believe they are poor and uneducated because they are religious though.
I'm a blue collar worker
Blue collar workers are very religious as well. I don't think you have your story straight.
I think it partly is, because if the claim is made that atheists are more educated and successful than religious people, it's synonymous with a claim that liberalism, or the Democrat party, possesses more worthy, educated influence.
While it may not be part of the topic here, I do see the correlation. It may be true that the Dems have more educated people, but I don't think it makes it by default more worthy.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by marc9000, posted 08-25-2013 8:31 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by marc9000, posted 08-26-2013 7:39 PM onifre has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 117 (705343)
08-26-2013 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Tangle
08-26-2013 2:54 AM


Re: Short Summary
Jon writes:
What purpose is there to life besides being happy?
Life's purpose is to make more life.
Obviously not an answer to the question I was asking. But that's okay; if being obtuse makes you happy, knock yourself out.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Tangle, posted 08-26-2013 2:54 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Tangle, posted 08-26-2013 1:40 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 37 of 117 (705354)
08-26-2013 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Jon
08-26-2013 2:33 AM


Re: Short Summary
What purpose is there to life besides being happy?
Plenty.
Not all people share the same value hierarchy. "Happiness" is not always at the top - other people seek value fulfillment in the acquisition of knowledge, or the raising of children, or any number of other values that do not necessarily maximize "happiness." In some cases the fulfillment of those values may make a person "happy," but not always, and the definition of "happy" is in many cases fuzzy.
If believing in a god makes me happier, shouldn't I believe in a god regardless of whether I think that god actually exists?
Hell, at least 70% of the reason I believe in a god is because of how it makes me feel; and since I'm not dropping bombs on folks based on my beliefs, there's really no reason not to go the happy route.
And you've given an example I can counter: I value knowledge and truth over happiness. I'd rather believe what it verifiably true than what makes me happy; I'd rather know how much is actually in my bank account than believe that I have infinite money. If God exists, I'd rather believe in God than not; if God does not exist, I'd rather believe that God does not exist. This is all independent of whether each belief would make me happier.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...
"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings
Nihil supernum

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Jon, posted 08-26-2013 2:33 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Jon, posted 08-26-2013 1:04 PM Rahvin has replied
 Message 52 by nwr, posted 08-26-2013 2:33 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 117 (705356)
08-26-2013 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Rahvin
08-26-2013 12:43 PM


Re: Short Summary
Not all people share the same value hierarchy. "Happiness" is not always at the top - other people seek value fulfillment in the acquisition of knowledge, or the raising of children, or any number of other values that do not necessarily maximize "happiness."
When does anyone do anything without contentment of some sort being the hoped-for outcome?
I'd rather know how much is actually in my bank account than believe that I have infinite money.
Sure; because the small discomfort you feel today over the low balance and not being able to order pizza is nothing compared to the huge discomfort you will feel when you are bankrupt and living in an alley.
Knowing how much is actually in your bank account is just another way for you to maximize happiness.
I value knowledge and truth over happiness.
Nah; you're discontented believing in nonsense when you know there is some other truth out there. Finding that knowledge and truth assuages the discontent and thus brings greater happiness.
In some cases the fulfillment of those values may make a person "happy," but not always, and the definition of "happy" is in many cases fuzzy.
We all seek happiness. The paths we take may differ. But no one desires misery.
Edited by Jon, : Don't worry... be happy...

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Rahvin, posted 08-26-2013 12:43 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Rahvin, posted 08-26-2013 1:23 PM Jon has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(1)
Message 39 of 117 (705359)
08-26-2013 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Jon
08-26-2013 1:04 PM


Re: Short Summary
We all seek happiness. The paths we take may differ. But no one desires misery.
False dilemma - not seeking happiness is not the same as desiring misery.
In many, many cases, the fulfillment of a value causes extreme discomfort and sometimes even misery. Civil rights activists are not generally seeking "happiness" - they're seeking social justice. In many cases they know that they'll be persecuted, possibly violently, can spend years or decades in prison, or even face assassination. Obviously they could have easily chosen a much better path to "happiness."
But they make those choices anyway. Because "happiness" is not always the highest value in the hierarchy.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...
"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings
Nihil supernum

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Jon, posted 08-26-2013 1:04 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Jon, posted 08-26-2013 2:28 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 40 of 117 (705360)
08-26-2013 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Jon
08-26-2013 2:33 AM


Re: Short Summary
If believing in a god makes me happier, shouldn't I believe in a god regardless of whether I think that god actually exists?
Wow. I guess I am stunned that you actual presented Pascal's Wager as your reason to believe in a god.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Jon, posted 08-26-2013 2:33 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Rahvin, posted 08-26-2013 1:29 PM Theodoric has replied
 Message 45 by Jon, posted 08-26-2013 2:10 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 41 of 117 (705361)
08-26-2013 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Theodoric
08-26-2013 1:26 PM


Re: Short Summary
Wow. I guess I am stunned that you actual presented Pascal's Wager as your reason to believe in a god.
Doesn't even strike me as Pascal's Wager - it's just an argument from consequence that he went ahead and embraced.
But if his highest value really is happiness, then his reasoning is consistent - he doesn't necessarily value logical consistency in his beliefs, he just goes with whatever makes him happier.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...
"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings
Nihil supernum

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Theodoric, posted 08-26-2013 1:26 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Theodoric, posted 08-26-2013 5:30 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 42 of 117 (705362)
08-26-2013 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Jon
08-26-2013 10:32 AM


Re: Short Summary
Jon writes:
Obviously not an answer to the question I was asking. But that's okay; if being obtuse makes you happy, knock yourself out.
That's not obtuse, that's a factual and correct answer to your question. There is no other purpose to life.
If you can make yourself happy in the meantime, feel free to 'knock yourself out.'

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Jon, posted 08-26-2013 10:32 AM Jon has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-26-2013 1:55 PM Tangle has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 43 of 117 (705363)
08-26-2013 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Jon
08-26-2013 2:33 AM


Re: Short Summary
Your reply doesn't seem to have anything to do with the quote you focused on.
quote:
"The fact that a believer is happier than a sceptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality."
The quote makes two points:
1. Simply being happy doesn't make someone a better person.
2. A whole bunch of people who are happy and say that they are happier because of God... doesn't make God exist.
Jon writes:
What purpose is there to life besides being happy?
Too many to count.
The purpose to one's life doesn't even have to be personal.
If believing in a god makes me happier, shouldn't I believe in a god regardless of whether I think that god actually exists?
Sure. I'd never argue otherwise.
The quote is simply saying that your happiness due to your belief doesn't imply that God exists.
But your happiness is certainly real, and certainly as deserved as anyone else's.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Jon, posted 08-26-2013 2:33 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Jon, posted 08-26-2013 2:17 PM Stile has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 44 of 117 (705364)
08-26-2013 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Tangle
08-26-2013 1:40 PM


Re: Short Summary
There is no other purpose to life.
There's the question of what is the purpose of this collection of self-replicating organic material, and then there's the question of what is the purpose of your existence as an individual. He asked the latter and you answered the former.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Tangle, posted 08-26-2013 1:40 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Tangle, posted 08-26-2013 2:29 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 117 (705365)
08-26-2013 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Theodoric
08-26-2013 1:26 PM


Re: Short Summary
Wow. I guess I am stunned that you actual presented Pascal's Wager as your reason to believe in a god.
I did?
Where?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Theodoric, posted 08-26-2013 1:26 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Theodoric, posted 08-26-2013 5:27 PM Jon has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024