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Author Topic:   God’s glitch in Eden. A & E had to break God’s second command to accomplish the first
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 16 of 95 (703875)
07-30-2013 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Greatest I am
07-30-2013 10:52 AM


more strawmen and misrepresentation from GIA
GIA writes:
Jar
No evil side to sex. Wow.
Humans doing animals is good then?
You lusting after another man's woman is good?
Children engaging in sex is good?
Are you a pedophile?
I could go on.
Regards
DL
First, it is jar not Jar.
Second, please point out where I said any of the above.
The pattern of you creating straw-men and misrepresenting what people post continues I see.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Greatest I am, posted 07-30-2013 10:52 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Greatest I am, posted 07-30-2013 1:24 PM jar has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 95 (703877)
07-30-2013 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Greatest I am
07-30-2013 10:52 AM


Re: more strawmen
No evil side to sex. Wow.
Humans doing animals is good then?
You lusting after another man's woman is good?
Children engaging in sex is good?
Are you a pedophile?
I could go on.
Please stop, you're embarrassing yourself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Greatest I am, posted 07-30-2013 10:52 AM Greatest I am has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 18 of 95 (703887)
07-30-2013 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by New Cat's Eye
07-30-2013 11:00 AM


C S
If they do not know what sex is, then how can they desire it.
Can you desire an apple without knowing what an apple is?
As to animals, they know good and evil FMPOV.
Let me give you this good answer from another source.
"You keep referencing the real world to make sense of the fiction, so let's explore the real world a little bit:
"The following characteristics appear to be shared by humans and other mammals, including and especially the apes, monkeys, dolphins and whales: attachment and bonding, cooperation and mutual aid, sympathy and empathy, direct and indirect reciprocity, altruism and reciprocal altruism, conflict resolution and peacemaking, deception and deception detection, community concern and caring about what others think about you, and awareness of and response to the social rules of the group." - The Science of Good and Evil, Michael Shermer
Altruism (biology) - Wikipedia
Evolution of morality - Wikipedia
Kindness and Sexual Behaviours in Bonobos - video Dailymotion
Scientist Finds the Beginnings of Morality in Primate Behavior - The New York Times
Morality: It's not just for humans - CNN
It's not just for humans, or any number of other articles, clips, snippets and tidbits that are within the reach of a quick and simple google search.
Sure, we aren't quite seeing the same degree of moral complexity here, or even necessarily reflection, but we certainly are seeing the same fundamental underlying mechanisms at work. The pertinent question is: what would we get if we added human intelligence to this equation? The psychological equivalent of Adam and Eve before the fall? I don't think so. If the capacity for real moral choice wasn't there already (and in some sense I think it's clear that it actually was), I'd say it strains credibility to suggest that it would still somehow magically be absent. My point here is that if you want to stick to referencing the real world to explain the narrative, you have to deal with the resulting considerations.
In fact what's funny about this is that not only do you seem to be inserting reality into the fiction, you're inserting the fiction into reality in the form of co-opting the concept of an objective moral code (as declared by the fictional character of "the creator") to contextualize issues of morality. Isn't that a bit circular? I mean really, what is "good and evil" without that contextualization? Is it essentially any different from the social morality practiced by other mammals? "
Regards
DL
Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-30-2013 11:00 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-30-2013 2:09 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 19 of 95 (703888)
07-30-2013 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by New Cat's Eye
07-30-2013 11:00 AM


C S
"Does sex and sexual desire have both a good and evil side?
You will answer yes to this of course
No, I won't. I'll say it depends."
This I gotta see.
Please tell us all what your judgement depends on and where you would say no to the question.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-30-2013 11:00 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-30-2013 2:11 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 20 of 95 (703889)
07-30-2013 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
07-30-2013 11:01 AM


Re: more strawmen and misrepresentation from GIA
jar
Notice the question marks.
I never said you said it. P S. Only a really small mind would bother with the J.
Now clarify your answer that there is no evil side to sex.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 07-30-2013 11:01 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 07-30-2013 2:17 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 95 (703891)
07-30-2013 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Greatest I am
07-30-2013 1:15 PM


If they do not know what sex is, then how can they desire it.
Instinct. You can get horny and have an erection before you know what sex is.
Can you desire an apple without knowing what an apple is?
Babies cry because they're hungry before they develop the cognitive abilities to identify specific foods.
Sure, we aren't quite seeing the same degree of moral complexity here, or even necessarily reflection, but we certainly are seeing the same fundamental underlying mechanisms at work.
Well sure, but what the fuck are you talking about?
What does any of that have to do with eating from the tree of knowledge?
The pertinent question is: what would we get if we added human intelligence to this equation? The psychological equivalent of Adam and Eve before the fall? I don't think so. If the capacity for real moral choice wasn't there already (and in some sense I think it's clear that it actually was), I'd say it strains credibility to suggest that it would still somehow magically be absent. My point here is that if you want to stick to referencing the real world to explain the narrative, you have to deal with the resulting considerations.
My point stands: There are animals that do not possess the cognitive abilities necessary for morality, and yet they are still capable of having sex. Therefore, those abilities are not necessary for having sex.
That simple point refutes your argument.
In fact what's funny about this is that not only do you seem to be inserting reality into the fiction, you're inserting the fiction into reality in the form of co-opting the concept of an objective moral code (as declared by the fictional character of "the creator") to contextualize issues of morality. Isn't that a bit circular? I mean really, what is "good and evil" without that contextualization? Is it essentially any different from the social morality practiced by other mammals? "
I don't know what you're going on about, but you've seen to abandon your original argument so I'll chalk that up as a win.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Greatest I am, posted 07-30-2013 1:15 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 95 (703892)
07-30-2013 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Greatest I am
07-30-2013 1:21 PM


"Does sex and sexual desire have both a good and evil side?
You will answer yes to this of course
No, I won't. I'll say it depends."
This I gotta see.
Please tell us all what your judgement depends on and where you would say no to the question.
Amoral creatures desire and have sex. Say, a chicken for example. There's nothing evil about some good old fashion chicken sex.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Greatest I am, posted 07-30-2013 1:21 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Greatest I am, posted 07-30-2013 2:58 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 23 of 95 (703895)
07-30-2013 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Greatest I am
07-30-2013 1:24 PM


Re: more strawmen and misrepresentation from GIA
It is jar, not Jar.
Sex is neither good nor bad.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Greatest I am, posted 07-30-2013 1:24 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 24 of 95 (703899)
07-30-2013 2:56 PM


"Instinct. You can get horny and have an erection before you know what sex is."
Sure but then you would not know what to do with it which was the case for A & E.
Regards
DL

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-30-2013 3:01 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 25 of 95 (703900)
07-30-2013 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by New Cat's Eye
07-30-2013 2:11 PM


Like you did not know we were talking humans.
I have no time for your games.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-30-2013 2:11 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-30-2013 3:03 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 26 of 95 (703901)
07-30-2013 2:59 PM


Sorry you do not enjoy sex then jar.
Regards
DL

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by jar, posted 07-30-2013 3:01 PM Greatest I am has replied
 Message 57 by Phat, posted 08-05-2013 4:39 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 95 (703903)
07-30-2013 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Greatest I am
07-30-2013 2:56 PM


"Instinct. You can get horny and have an erection before you know what sex is."
Sure but then you would not know what to do with it which was the case for A & E.
That's an unsupported assertion that deviates from your original argument.
How do you know they wouldn't know what to do with it? What makes you think they couldn't have figured it out like animals do?
What does that have to do with your argument that knowledge of good and evil was a prerequisite because sex has a good and bad side?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Greatest I am, posted 07-30-2013 2:56 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Greatest I am, posted 08-04-2013 11:37 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 28 of 95 (703904)
07-30-2013 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Greatest I am
07-30-2013 2:59 PM


GIA still misrepresenting stuff and making up strawmen.
Again, please link to the post where I said I did not enjoy sex?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Greatest I am, posted 07-30-2013 2:59 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Greatest I am, posted 08-04-2013 11:35 PM jar has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 95 (703905)
07-30-2013 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Greatest I am
07-30-2013 2:58 PM


Well maybe if you used the quote function and wrote coherently, then people would be able to makes sense out of your posts.
But we were talking about humans that did not know good and evil. You're argument was that they couldn't have sex. Animals are an example of creatures that do not know good and evil but can still have sex. There's no reason to think that those humans would have been any different.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Greatest I am, posted 07-30-2013 2:58 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Greatest I am, posted 08-04-2013 11:34 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 30 of 95 (703910)
07-30-2013 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Greatest I am
07-30-2013 10:41 AM


Just answer the questions in sequence.
Well, the answer to the last one is that you don't need to know everything about sex in order to desire it. People can, for example, get horny without knowing the definition of maschalagnia. In fact, that would be most people.
And the same goes for pretty much everyone else. Of the people who desire (for example) to eat a pineapple, only a tiny insignificant fraction know that they don't grow on trees. But they can still desire pineapples, they don't need to know all about them to do so.
And knowledge of good and evil doesn't seem to have any sort of privileged status in this consideration. Perhaps pineapples are grown by slave workers and watered with the tears of orphans; or perhaps, on the contrary, all profits from the sale of pineapples go to charity. I have no idea, but I still always know whether or not I want to eat a pineapple.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Greatest I am, posted 07-30-2013 10:41 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Greatest I am, posted 08-04-2013 11:31 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
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