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Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 676 of 716 (807355)
05-02-2017 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 673 by Faith
05-02-2017 12:48 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
quote:
It's always possible to demand that something have other characteristics than it has, to the point that you can utterly ignore the characteristics it does have as insufficient by your exacting standards
But that is not what I am doing is it? All I am suggesting is that since so much of the relevant passage does not seem to be astrological imagery it is questionable whether the original image is entirely astronomical imagery. That is hardly unreasonable.
quote:
The fact is that the actual phenomenon, the woman in Revelation 12, fits the description of Virgo on a particular date, doesn't disappear when you insist it be something other than it iS
Of course it is possible that the Revelation contains astrological imagery. But since there seems to be other imagery in there it is possible that it means something else instead. Especially as we have no confirmation that the date Larson refers to had any importance to the early Christians. And even Larson thinks it is the conception, when the Revelation specifically says that the woman is giving birth.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 678 by Faith, posted 05-02-2017 1:03 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1521 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 677 of 716 (807356)
05-02-2017 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 675 by Tangle
05-02-2017 12:56 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
Oh good grief. The reality of the star positions doesn't change the fact that the patterns are treated as objectively there and can be referred to as identifiable entities. It's an optical illusion but who cares. Virgo is still Virgo to the naked eye.
Sigh.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 680 by Tangle, posted 05-02-2017 1:24 PM Faith has replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1521 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 678 of 716 (807357)
05-02-2017 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 676 by PaulK
05-02-2017 12:58 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
It doesn't matter if that date IS the date, there has to be a date on which the figure of the woman is exactly as described because the terms clearly point to the astrological sign of Virgo at Rosh Hashana in some year or other.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 679 of 716 (807360)
05-02-2017 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 678 by Faith
05-02-2017 1:03 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
Maybe it does. But given the obscurity of the rest - and the fact that it hardly follows a clear timeline - it is hard to say that it has any significance, beyond the - assumed - use of astrological imagery.
Taking a small part of Revelation 12 and claiming that it refers to something without any clear idea of what it means or how it fits into the rest is simply not a compelling argument.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 678 by Faith, posted 05-02-2017 1:03 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 682 by Faith, posted 05-02-2017 3:52 PM PaulK has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 680 of 716 (807361)
05-02-2017 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 677 by Faith
05-02-2017 1:00 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
Faith writes:
Oh good grief. The reality of the star positions doesn't change the fact that the patterns are treated as objectively there and can be referred to as identifiable entities. It's an optical illusion but who cares. Virgo is still Virgo to the naked eye.
I guess you don't see the irony of comparing one work of fiction and imagination - contellations - with another - the bible - and attempting to extract meaning from it all.
And this from the girl that hand waves away real facts.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1521 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 681 of 716 (807363)
05-02-2017 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 680 by Tangle
05-02-2017 1:24 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
John was an apostle, he had been exiled to the island of Patmos for preaching Christ. He had the visions of the book of Revelation while there. He was about ninety at the time. A real person. He wrote about real things as well as the visions. One of the visions was of a woman described in terms that turn out to be the spittin image of the traditional interpretation of the constellation of Virgo on Rosh Hashana of 3BC. It's possible to be so "realistic" you miss reality altogether. Life is full of paradoxes.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1521 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 682 of 716 (807374)
05-02-2017 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 679 by PaulK
05-02-2017 1:17 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
We know what the woman of Rev 12 means without the astrology, that's not a problem. We know this is a passage about the birth of Christ. Why it is also an image of Virgo I don't know but it appears to be exactly that. I can't deny the Virgo image is actually there myself. Why we would even need images in the heavens to tell the story of Christ I don't know, but for some reason there seem to be such images there. And I'm speaking very conservatively since I only know of the few Larson seems to have found. I agree with anyone who thinks the whole thing is very odd in the biblical context and very unexpected, but I have to assume there is a reason for it we'll eventually understand.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 683 of 716 (807375)
05-02-2017 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 682 by Faith
05-02-2017 3:52 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
quote:
We know what the woman of Rev 12 means without the astrology, that's not a problem. We know this is a passage about the birth of Christ
Is it ? Or is the birth part of the symbolism ? Surely you can't claim that the narrative in Revelation 12 is an actual close match for Jesus' life on Earth,
quote:
Why it is also an image of Virgo I don't know but it appears to be exactly that
Or maybe it is symbolism that you don't understand. Is the description actual astrology or Larson's invention ? Did the vision just show Virgo or did it show the image as the author describes it ? It seems significant that when I search google for the crown of twelve stars I only get apologetic sites.
And even Answers in Genesisfind that one dubious.

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9274
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 684 of 716 (807381)
05-02-2017 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 672 by Faith
05-02-2017 12:35 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
You do realize that through time the constellations have and will change? You do don't you? Also, do you realize that there are stars up in the sky during the day too?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9274
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 685 of 716 (807382)
05-02-2017 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 681 by Faith
05-02-2017 1:39 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
Can you provide the historical evidence for this neat little fantasy?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 681 by Faith, posted 05-02-2017 1:39 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 34047
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 686 of 716 (807387)
05-02-2017 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 677 by Faith
05-02-2017 1:00 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
Faith writes:
Oh good grief. The reality of the star positions doesn't change the fact that the patterns are treated as objectively there and can be referred to as identifiable entities. It's an optical illusion but who cares. Virgo is still Virgo to the naked eye.
Sigh.
Only when viewed through eyes that are biased to Western Greek & Roman mythology. Virgo the constellation is as much a myth as Virgo the Goddess just as Revelation is only an apocryphal fable about what was expected to happen and did not happen over a thousand years ago.
Jesus failed to fulfill the Jewish Messianic prophecies because Jesus is not and never will be the Jewish Messiah.
Just as Jesus was never a Christian.
It really is that simple.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1521 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 687 of 716 (807442)
05-03-2017 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 685 by Theodoric
05-02-2017 6:14 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
Can you provide the historical evidence for this neat little fantasy?
Absolutely the best, the most excellent, the most trustworthy:
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
-- Revelation 1:9

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Replies to this message:
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Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2406 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 688 of 716 (807454)
05-03-2017 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 678 by Faith
05-02-2017 1:03 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
Yes, Faith has this right.
Prophecy is bound by the Holy Days of the Year, Its the Lords calendar, as He created 'time' and of course the times of the harvest. There are two harvests, the harvest of the righteous, who are righteous ONLY because they choose the righteous ONE (JESUS) and the harvest of the unrighteous..... the Day of Judgment, the Day of ATONEMENT.
Theres a separation of 45 days for these two distinct judgments.
We (christians) are harvested at HIS 2nd Coming, in the clouds, and go up to the Marriage Supper, while the 7 vials 'rain down' on the disobedient...... the seventh vial being the Battle of Armeggeddon... the harvest of the unjust.
And of course, we with the Lord heading us, win.
As Jesus always wins.
But Yes, Faith is right, the Rosh Hannah is the time of the second harvest, and Hence a seven year period dictates that its start, the signing of the Covenant is signed in the early FALL season.
The woman fleeing to Petra, however occurs 3.5 years later in late February.....
Revelation

.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.
.

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 Message 678 by Faith, posted 05-02-2017 1:03 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 489 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 689 of 716 (807518)
05-03-2017 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 687 by Faith
05-03-2017 5:14 AM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
Faith writes:
Can you provide the historical evidence for this neat little fantasy?
Absolutely the best, the most excellent, the most trustworthy:
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
-- Revelation 1:9
Really? Really? Really?
quote:
Call me Ishmael.
-- Herman Melville

This message is a reply to:
 Message 687 by Faith, posted 05-03-2017 5:14 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 690 by Faith, posted 05-03-2017 4:42 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1521 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 690 of 716 (807535)
05-03-2017 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 689 by ringo
05-03-2017 3:18 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
Fiction does try to sound like truth you know. Moby Dick fooled you didn't it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 689 by ringo, posted 05-03-2017 3:18 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 691 by ringo, posted 05-03-2017 4:49 PM Faith has replied

  
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