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Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1527 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 631 of 716 (807009)
04-30-2017 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 623 by jar
04-30-2017 7:56 AM


Re: The Star: Common Occurrences Together Become Rare
Jesus followers hoped he would be a king but he was never a king.
After Pentecost they definitely knew he was King Messiah, and the apostle John's book of Revelation certainly pictures him as King of Kings, to come again and reign over Earth.
Again Faith, lunar eclipses are not unusual and in fact happen at least twice a year and could be as often as five times a year.
The title of this post should be a clue that I am putting together different events to add up to one special or rare event. If April 3,33AD as the day of the crucifixion, many different things had to come together to point to that date. The blood moon occurred at the time of Jesus' death and it rose at the feet of the sign of Virgo. All that together is NOT common.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 623 by jar, posted 04-30-2017 7:56 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 634 by jar, posted 04-30-2017 11:15 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1527 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 632 of 716 (807010)
04-30-2017 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 630 by Davidjay
04-30-2017 10:12 AM


I agree, David.

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 Message 630 by Davidjay, posted 04-30-2017 10:12 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 633 of 716 (807017)
04-30-2017 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 628 by Faith
04-30-2017 9:44 AM


Re: The Star: Common Occurrences Together Become Rare
quote:
The timing is VERY important. This triple passing of Regulus by Jupiter occurred in Leo just before the conception of Christ.
So Jesus the King was overthrown when he was conceived ? Except that the conception date is assumed on the basis of Larson's astrology anyway, without any other evidence at all, so even that is very shaky.
So much for the "importance" of timing.
quote:
I "don't believe" WHAT?
You don't believe that Jesus will be overthrown after he comes back and actually starts to reign of course.
quote:
What I believe is that he WAS overthrown AS KING. He's always King whether recognized or not. Riding into Jerusalem on the donkey, for instance, is something Kings did to announce their reign.
It is something anyone who could get a donkey could do. It's hardly a coronation. So no, Jesus never reigned as a king and can't have been overthrown as king. It would make a better sign of Herod's death and the Roman interference in the succession. Except those had already happened by the best evidence we have.
quote:
Well Aries IS linked to Jesus, being the symbol of the Lamb of God that marks the month in which He was sacrificed as the Passover Lamb
And you have already used Leo and the fish is a well-known symbol for Jesus so Pisces applies, too.
quote:
The moon being frequently in Virgo at Rosh Hashana doesn't always put it at the feet of the constellation
There aren't that many places in the constellation that it can be, so still a common event.
quote:
Of course they believed it.
Unfortunately you haven't come up with a good reason why they would believe it. Assuming that they would agree with Larson rather than Zoroastrian ideas (if they were real Magi) or Babylonian ideas if they were Eastern astrologers does not make a lot of sense.
quote:
Either they weren't Jewish and needed that information since the star hadn't been that specific; or they were Jewish and unfamiliar with Judea and needed to be pointed toward Bethlehem.
Matthew tells us that they didn't know that the birth would be in Bethlehem.
quote:
Many good reasons they might have been Jewish have been discussed.
Name one.
quote:
If the blood moon wasn't visible the night of the crucifixion then Peter was wrong to say to the crowd assembled at Pentecost that they had all witnessed the signs. That would mean looking for a different date for the crucifixion.
Looks more like something he expects to happen in the near future. Pentecost is the prophesying at the start of the Joel quote - which is about the Last Days anyway - and the other signs appear to come later. So it seems to me that it would be better for you to say that Peter was wrong - since the world is still here, the best part of 2000 years later.

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jar
Member
Posts: 34055
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 634 of 716 (807022)
04-30-2017 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 631 by Faith
04-30-2017 10:19 AM


Re: The Star: Common Occurrences Together Become Rare
Faith writes:
After Pentecost they definitely knew he was King Messiah, and the apostle John's book of Revelation certainly pictures him as King of Kings, to come again and reign over Earth.
Nonsense Faith. There is nothing about Pentecost that implies kingship nor does any group thinking someone is a king make that person a king. And all of Revelation is still simply failed prophecy.
Faith writes:
The title of this post should be a clue that I am putting together different events to add up to one special or rare event. If April 3,33AD as the day of the crucifixion, many different things had to come together to point to that date. The blood moon occurred at the time of Jesus' death and it rose at the feet of the sign of Virgo. All that together is NOT common.
No o0ne doubts that if someone wishes to find patterns they can find patterns but since Jesus is not evident in any Old Testament tales then all that is in evidence in the New Testament are examples of after the fact human attempts to create fulfilled prophecies.
It's all human creation Faith.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 631 by Faith, posted 04-30-2017 10:19 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 635 by Faith, posted 04-30-2017 11:57 AM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1527 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 635 of 716 (807025)
04-30-2017 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 634 by jar
04-30-2017 11:15 AM


Re: The Star: Common Occurrences Together Become Rare
Nonsense Faith. There is nothing about Pentecost that implies kingship nor does any group thinking someone is a king make that person a king.
Pentecost was when the Holy Spirit was sent by the ascended Christ to empower them. The first sign of the empowerment was Peter's bold speech to the crowd. Having seen the risen Jesus over forty days they knew He was supernaturally empowered, but it took Pentecost to give them the power themselves. In any case they knew their Messiah was God and King at that point and went out preaching it, whereas before they had been holed up in private for fear of the Jews.
And all of Revelation is still simply failed prophecy.
There isn't one thing in the entire Bible that has failed, and as for Revelation we understand most of it to describe the Day of the Lord (also known as The Great Tribulation) which is mentioned a number of times in the OT, when God's wrath will come upon the whole Earth. That hasn't happened yet.
But again, that book shows Christ in His kingly role.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 634 by jar, posted 04-30-2017 11:15 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 636 by Tangle, posted 04-30-2017 12:03 PM Faith has replied
 Message 637 by jar, posted 04-30-2017 12:05 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 636 of 716 (807026)
04-30-2017 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 635 by Faith
04-30-2017 11:57 AM


Re: The Star: Common Occurrences Together Become Rare
Faith writes:
There isn't one thing in the entire Bible that has failed,
Well I have one fairly significant one - the second coming, didn't happen. Or if it did, no-one noticed.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 635 by Faith, posted 04-30-2017 11:57 AM Faith has replied

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jar
Member
Posts: 34055
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 637 of 716 (807027)
04-30-2017 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 635 by Faith
04-30-2017 11:57 AM


Re: The Star: Common Occurrences Together Become Rare
Faith writes:
Pentecost was when the Holy Spirit was sent by the ascended Christ to empower them. The first sign of the empowerment was Peter's bold speech to the crowd. In any case they knew their Messiah was God and King at that point and went out preaching it, whereas before they had been holed up in private for fear of the Jews.
There you go making stuff up again. Faith, many of us have actually read the Bible. There is nothing in the Pentecost story about Jesus being a King nor did they go out and preach that Jesus was a king.
Faith writes:
There isn't one thing in the entire Bible that has failed, and as for Revelation we understand most of it to describe the Day of the Lord (also known as The Great Tribulation) which is mentioned a number of times in the OT, when God's wrath will come upon the whole Earth. That hasn't happened yet.
There you go making really silly claims Faith; claims that are refuted by your own words. If it ain't happened yet then it is still failed prophecy.
It really is that simple Faith no matter how often you pretend it is otherwise.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1527 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 638 of 716 (807029)
04-30-2017 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 636 by Tangle
04-30-2017 12:03 PM


Re: The Star: Common Occurrences Together Become Rare
How can a prophecy of the future have failed before its time has come?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 639 by Coyote, posted 04-30-2017 12:50 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 645 by ringo, posted 04-30-2017 2:26 PM Faith has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2189 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 639 of 716 (807031)
04-30-2017 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 638 by Faith
04-30-2017 12:44 PM


Re: The Star: Common Occurrences Together Become Rare
It does not pay a prophet to be too specific.
- L. Sprague de Camp

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 640 of 716 (807039)
04-30-2017 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 629 by Faith
04-30-2017 9:51 AM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
It's impossible to explain then, how it is that the Woman of Revelation 12 is the exact spittin image of this mythological sign.
Astrology is just a bunch of tale weaving. You can find matches with just about anything.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 629 by Faith, posted 04-30-2017 9:51 AM Faith has not replied

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2412 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 641 of 716 (807044)
04-30-2017 2:13 PM


OK, lets study Revelation 12
First study and note that all prophecies fit together cohesively, including Revelation 12
Revelation
or complete
RevelationsTimeline
Do note that all of the chapters of Daniel, fit exactly into place...
And as Faith said, Revelation 12 is about the woman, fleeing into the wilderness at the start of the GREAT TRIBULATION. Faith has this part correct !!
Thats at the bottom where the woman with child flees from the dragon, (the AC) We going to Petra as prophesied before by the Lord, to a place prepared for us.
Yes, Mary represents Virgo, and we represent the church, not a building but the followers of Jesus from all nations, all races, all genders, all ages, all intellectual abilities and talents, all as in ALL.
WE flee together lead by our worldly leaders ther Two Prophets
SEE and study
2WitnessesofRevelation

.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.
.

Replies to this message:
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Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2412 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 642 of 716 (807046)
04-30-2017 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 641 by Davidjay
04-30-2017 2:13 PM


Re: OK, lets study Revelation 12
And notice the exact timeframe of the Great Tribulation... 3.5 years, 1260 days, 42 months exactly.....
Pity we are not allowed to discuss this on a separate thread as we have been trying to discuss this standard and BASIC for a long time, on Proposed New Topics, but it has been disallowed so far.
Maybe too exact and too mathematical for evolutionists to understand, but READERS can easily do the math and easily understand.
Faith was right, about the constellation association, and the woman representing not just Mary and Joseph fleeing the devil (Herod) but us fleeing the AC devil.... SEE Mathew 24 etc etc..

.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 641 by Davidjay, posted 04-30-2017 2:13 PM Davidjay has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 494 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 643 of 716 (807047)
04-30-2017 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 607 by Faith
04-29-2017 3:04 PM


Re: The Star: It's All Natural Astronomical Phenomena
Faith writes:
... it's not clear that they were asking where the child was to be born, but where Bethlehem was, which they wouldn't have known if they'd never been to Judea before.
It's actually very clear. They asked where the child was, not where Bethlehem was. And if you're asking for directions, you don't go to the White House; you ask somebody on the street.
Faith writes:
What signs revealed this to them aren't all that clear to us, but since they came to worship him we know they knew He was no ordinary king.
We know they thought he was no ordinary King. Or rather, the authors of the story, who thought he was no ordinary king, claimed he was no ordinary king.
He was, after all, nothing like a king in any way. It seems like a made-up attempt to portray him as something he was not.

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 Message 607 by Faith, posted 04-29-2017 3:04 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 494 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 644 of 716 (807049)
04-30-2017 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 629 by Faith
04-30-2017 9:51 AM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
Faith writes:
It's impossible to explain then, how it is that the Woman of Revelation 12 is the exact spittin image of this mythological sign.
Oh come on. Do you think Superman in the movies is the exact spittin image of Superman in comic books because Superman is real? Or could it be because one copied the other?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 629 by Faith, posted 04-30-2017 9:51 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 648 by Faith, posted 04-30-2017 2:59 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 494 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 645 of 716 (807051)
04-30-2017 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 638 by Faith
04-30-2017 12:44 PM


Re: The Star: Common Occurrences Together Become Rare
Faith writes:
How can a prophecy of the future have failed before its time has come?
Everything is a failure until it succeeds. You can't claim that no prophecy in the Bible has failed until all of them succeed.
Edited by ringo, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 646 by Davidjay, posted 04-30-2017 2:36 PM ringo has replied

  
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