Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 58 (9173 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: Neptune7
Post Volume: Total: 917,567 Year: 4,824/9,624 Month: 172/427 Week: 85/85 Day: 2/20 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?
Stile
Member (Idle past 120 days)
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 121 of 169 (702343)
07-04-2013 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by ICANT
07-04-2013 1:52 PM


Non-egotistical possibilities
ICANT writes:
There was a space of 3 hours that God the Father separated Himself from God the Son that satisfied God the Father as a ransom to restore mankind to the same relationship that mankind had with God in the Garden when they walked and talked with God.
That does sound a bit egotistical.
Are there any other possible reasons that God may have separated Himself from Jesus for 3 hours for?
Let's assume that God is real.
And assume that Jesus is real.
And assume that They exist as depicted in the Bible.
And assume that the crucifixion happened.
And assume that the resurrection happened.
...but let's say that the Gospels may have been not-exactly-the-truth and involve a bit of human embellishment.
Can we think of any other possible reasons for the 3 hours of separation during the crucifixion that make sense?
(Provide your possibility and any reasoning behind it)
Possible Reason:
God was not pleased with Jesus' life and decided to separate for 3 hours as punishment
-God is known to punish others for things He finds distasteful
-Jesus was all about "fulfilling/correcting/replacing" the Old Testament... which was from God
Can you think of any others?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by ICANT, posted 07-04-2013 1:52 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 122 of 169 (702352)
07-04-2013 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by ICANT
07-04-2013 1:39 PM


Re: Agony
The agony does not begin until the physical body dies and the spiritual being is placed in the holding place until the great white throne judgment at which time that spiritual being will be cast into the lake of fire and separated from God for eternity.
Oh how infinitely loving of your god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by ICANT, posted 07-04-2013 1:39 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Faith, posted 07-04-2013 9:38 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1521 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 123 of 169 (702359)
07-04-2013 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by AZPaul3
07-04-2013 6:06 PM


Re: Agony
Oh how infinitely loving of your god.
Well, yes, He is. You apparently think He should just completely overlook those who insult Him and refuse to accept His provision of salvation from the agony in question? It's not as if He hasn't gone to great lengths to be sure knowledge of His provision is available. Very loving of Him indeed. The responsibility is on those who reject it. Those who have never heard the gospel will generally do much better in the Judgment than those who have heard and rejected it. No, He's certainly infinitely loving.
Now let's see you change the subject and complain that He doesn't exist anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by AZPaul3, posted 07-04-2013 6:06 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by AZPaul3, posted 07-04-2013 10:49 PM Faith has replied
 Message 138 by ringo, posted 07-05-2013 11:59 AM Faith has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


(3)
Message 124 of 169 (702361)
07-04-2013 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Faith
07-04-2013 9:38 PM


Re: Agony
Now let's see you change the subject and complain that He doesn't exist anyway.
Well, OK. Just remember that you insisted.
It's not real. It doesn't exist so I don't have to be the least bit concerned.
And thank god it doesn't exist. If such an evil, sadistic, homicidal, megalomaniac were real then this world would not be worth having a life in. Yes, I would oppose it. Yes, I would curse its bloodlust, its slaughter of the innocent and its total murderous disdain for all humanity. I would be in your god awful lake of fire and every time it tortured me I would have cause to hate it even more.
If I told my daughter, well when she was younger and at home, that she will love, respect and obey me "or else," do you think this would garner feelings of love from her?
If I told her that she is free to love, respect and obey me as she feels, but if she doesn't I will chain her to her bed and whip her 5 times a day, not for a week or a month or a year but for the rest of her short miserable life ... do you really believe this shows my "infinite love" for her?
This is exactly your conception of your god.
What kind of sick little mind would conceive such an abhorrent contemptible monster and then pray to it, bow before it, worship it and love it?
An infinitely loving god would do away with torture, would dissolve your other god Satan, cure all cancers in kids, stop all wars. It would show its love to us, not by torturing and murdering some messenger, but by protecting, teaching, helping, without pain, without blood, without the need to cajole worship, without even a need for a thank you. THAT would be infinite love. Unconditional.
What you conceive is an abomination.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Faith, posted 07-04-2013 9:38 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Faith, posted 07-04-2013 11:23 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1521 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 125 of 169 (702362)
07-04-2013 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by AZPaul3
07-04-2013 10:49 PM


Re: Agony
Funny, you know, you'd think the Bible was the only source of such an idea as punishment in the afterlife for sin, the way you all talk here, but just about all cultures have their own version of such a place, a Hell or in some cases many Hells, where all the unrighteous go, ideas that precede the Bible by centuries. Along comes the Bible to tell us we don't have to go there because of God's gracious provision and instead of gratitude people here make the Bible responsible for inventing an afterlife that had in fact always been recognized. Even some very weird notions about salvation show up in various cultures, all those dying gods, "resurrected" gods and so on, whose deaths and resurrections are just a parody of the real thing and couldn't save a turnip.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by AZPaul3, posted 07-04-2013 10:49 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by AZPaul3, posted 07-05-2013 12:25 AM Faith has replied
 Message 143 by Iblis, posted 07-06-2013 10:37 PM Faith has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


(3)
Message 126 of 169 (702363)
07-05-2013 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Faith
07-04-2013 11:23 PM


Re: Agony
... ideas that precede the Bible by centuries.
What we've been saying. Your god is a third generation knockoff with attributes stolen from the myths of the other non-existent gods and just as "real?" as the delusions of the gods before.
Along comes the Bible to tell us we don't have to go there because of God's gracious provision and instead of gratitude people here make the Bible responsible for inventing an afterlife that had in fact always been recognized.
No one said your version of a bible was the first with an afterlife or with a virgin birth, or with walking on water, or a guaranteed salvation vs an eternity of torture and etc., like that. We already know your religions are fictitious growths glommed on to the religions from before.
None of this is the point.
The point is that your religion, no matter where it got the memes, latched on to a schizoid sadist of a god that you say made humans and loves humans and then goes and tortures and kills us by the world-full after getting a bit cranky because not enough people "loved" it back. Then you tell us that it's an infinite loving god that will torture and burn us for eternity if we don't worship it enough and in exactly the way it wants.
So it is your god, your religion, your conception of its infinitely loving murderous demeanor that is the issue here, not where all the bullshit you picked up in bits a pieces then package into your god came from originally.
Even some very weird notions about salvation show up in various cultures, all those dying gods, "resurrected" gods and so on, whose deaths and resurrections are just a parody of the real thing and couldn't save a turnip.
So now your god doesn't like turnips any more than it likes people?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Faith, posted 07-04-2013 11:23 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Faith, posted 07-05-2013 12:45 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1521 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 127 of 169 (702364)
07-05-2013 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by AZPaul3
07-05-2013 12:25 AM


Re: Agony
I refer to an objective reality, nothing I ever made up myself. I am certainly grateful for having been given the wonderful privilege of believing in the true God who is love, and all I can do is deplore the hideous distortions of His character and His word that I encounter here. Long past time I realized the hatred of God here is so dug in there's just no point in continuing to try to get across the truth.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by AZPaul3, posted 07-05-2013 12:25 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Tangle, posted 07-05-2013 1:06 AM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 128 of 169 (702365)
07-05-2013 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Faith
07-05-2013 12:45 AM


Re: Agony
qs writes:
I refer to an objective reality,
If that was actually true, we'd all believe the same thing wouldn't we? You'd be able to say - 'here it is, see, I told you'. Just like you you can say 'here's my chair, I told you I had one, now do you believe me?' That's what the words 'objective' and 'reality' mean.
Long past time I realized the hatred of God here is so dug in there's just no point in continuing to try to get across the truth.
No-one here hates God. You can't hate someting that doesn't exist. What we hate is your idea of what you think your god is. And more importantly we hate what often happens when people believe in such dangerous fantasies.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Faith, posted 07-05-2013 12:45 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Faith, posted 07-05-2013 1:10 AM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1521 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 129 of 169 (702366)
07-05-2013 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Tangle
07-05-2013 1:06 AM


Re: Agony
You've confused "objective reality" with material reality.
You hate God, because the God I'm talking about IS the real God.
And the only dangerous fantasies here are those of the haters of God. Believers are not dangerous, much as you all strain to believe it so.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Tangle, posted 07-05-2013 1:06 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Tangle, posted 07-05-2013 1:17 AM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 130 of 169 (702367)
07-05-2013 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Faith
07-05-2013 1:10 AM


Re: Agony
faith writes:
You've confused "objective reality" with material reality.
objective (b-jktv)
adj.
1. Of or having to do with a material object.
2. Having actual existence or reality.
3.
a. Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices: an objective critic. See Synonyms at fair1.
b. Based on observable phenomena; presented factually: an objective appraisal.
4. Medicine Indicating a symptom or condition perceived as a sign of disease by someone other than the person affected.
5. Grammar
a. Of, relating to, or being the case of a noun or pronoun that serves as the object of a verb.
b. Of or relating to a noun or pronoun used in this case.
n.
1. Something that actually exists.
2. Something worked toward or striven for; a goal. See Synonyms at intention.
3. Grammar
a. The objective case.
b. A noun or pronoun in the objective case.
4. The lens or lens system in a microscope or other optical instrument that first receives light rays from the object and forms the image. Also called object glass, objective lens, object lens.
objectively adv.
objectiveness n.
As we keep saying, words have meanings - you can't make them up like your god - see 3a.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Faith, posted 07-05-2013 1:10 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Faith, posted 07-05-2013 1:28 AM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1521 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 131 of 169 (702368)
07-05-2013 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Tangle
07-05-2013 1:17 AM


Re: Agony
God is an objective reality. He exists.
I will erase those that do not apply:
objective (b-jktv)
adj.
1.
2. Having actual existence or reality.
3.
a. Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices: an objective critic.
b. ...presented factually: an objective appraisal.
4.
5.
a.
b.
n.
1. Something that actually exists.
2.
3.
a.
b.
4.
objectively adv.
objectiveness n.
As we keep saying, words have meanings - you can't make them up like your god - see 3a.
And 3a is part of the definition I have in mind. Not made up, not influenced by emotion, completely objective assessment of the facts is how I arrived at my belief in the Biblical God. You all trash the excellent evidence but some of us are led by it to the truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Tangle, posted 07-05-2013 1:17 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Tangle, posted 07-05-2013 1:45 AM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 132 of 169 (702369)
07-05-2013 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by Faith
07-05-2013 1:28 AM


Re: Agony
Show me your chair and I will sit on it, until then, you're just making stuff up in your head.
That's called subjective and unreal.
subjective [suhb-jek-tiv] Show IPA
adjective
1.
existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought (opposed to objective ).
2.
pertaining to or characteristic of an individual; personal; individual: a subjective evaluation.
3.
placing excessive emphasis on one's own moods, attitudes, opinions, etc.; unduly egocentric.
4.
Philosophy . relating to or of the nature of an object as it is known in the mind as distinct from a thing in itself.
5.
relating to properties or specific conditions of the mind as distinguished from general or universal experience.
unreal (n-rl, -rl)
adj.
1. Not real or substantial; illusory.
2. Slang So remarkable as to elicit disbelief; fantastic.
3. Surreal.
Words have meanings.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Faith, posted 07-05-2013 1:28 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Faith, posted 07-05-2013 2:09 AM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1521 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 133 of 169 (702370)
07-05-2013 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Tangle
07-05-2013 1:45 AM


Re: Agony
Show me your chair and I will sit on it, until then, you're just making stuff up in your head.
Again you are confusing "objective" with "material." There are objective realities that are not material, even some you'd acknowledge yourself: ideas, thoughts, feelings, name it, there are a lot of them. Not their contents but their factual existence.
That's called subjective and unreal.
Nope, you are very confused about reality.
subjective [suhb-jek-tiv] Show IPA
adjective
1.
existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought (opposed to objective ).
2.
pertaining to or characteristic of an individual; personal; individual: a subjective evaluation.
3.
placing excessive emphasis on one's own moods, attitudes, opinions, etc.; unduly egocentric.
4.
Philosophy . relating to or of the nature of an object as it is known in the mind as distinct from a thing in itself.
5.
relating to properties or specific conditions of the mind as distinguished from general or universal experience.
unreal (n-rl, -rl)
adj.
1. Not real or substantial; illusory.
2. Slang So remarkable as to elicit disbelief; fantastic.
3. Surreal.
Words have meanings.
Words do indeed have meanings and not a single one of those definitions of "subjective" applies to the Biblical God or to my belief in Him, which as I said and will say again, is based on excellent evidence which convinced me of His objective existence, and not on any subjectivity of mine, no emotion, no prejudice, nothing. I was PERSUADED by the evidence. Oh you'll rant and deny it of course, but on what grounds? Nothing but YOUR subjective need to disbelieve what I'm saying.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Tangle, posted 07-05-2013 1:45 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Tangle, posted 07-05-2013 2:29 AM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 134 of 169 (702371)
07-05-2013 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Faith
07-05-2013 2:09 AM


Re: Agony
faith writes:
Oh you'll rant and deny it of course, but on what grounds? Nothing but YOUR subjective need to disbelieve what I'm saying.
The existence or otherwise of your chair can be objectively proven, it is real. I do not have to believe you. The existence of your god can not be objectively proven; it's a subjective judgement whether I believe you or not.
By using the word 'belief', you prove that what you are talking about is both subjective and unreal.
It's been fascinating watching you try to make opposite words mean the same; objective=subjective and real=unreal. But I'm done with this sillyness now.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Faith, posted 07-05-2013 2:09 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Faith, posted 07-05-2013 7:34 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 142 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 135 of 169 (702373)
07-05-2013 5:58 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by ICANT
07-04-2013 1:39 PM


Re: Agony
Strag writes:
Are not most people separated from 'God the father'?
ICANT writes:
Only those who have died without accepting His offer of eternal live.
You say "only" but that constitutes the overwhelming majority of people that have ever lived doesn't it?
ICANT writes:
You are not separated from God as you receive the on going life you have on earth from Him.
Are you talking about physical life when you talk about my "ongoing life"?
ICANT writes:
The agony does not begin until the physical body dies and the spiritual being is placed in the holding place until the great white throne judgment at which time that spiritual being will be cast into the lake of fire and separated from God for eternity.
Why would physical fire have any sensory effect on a spiritual body?
Which bit of the bible talks about being separated from God as 'agony'?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by ICANT, posted 07-04-2013 1:39 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by ICANT, posted 07-05-2013 8:18 PM Straggler has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024