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Author Topic:   Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?
jar
Member
Posts: 34059
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 106 of 169 (702184)
07-02-2013 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Phat
07-02-2013 2:23 AM


Re: Let's go get stoned.
A couple different issue seem to be mixed up in those two tirades.
There are some basics though that I think you need to try to understand.
First is the concept that what the Bible stories actually say are what they actually say and NOT what people add by way of interpretation. In the story found in Genesis 2&3 it is the Serpent that actually tells the truth and the God character that lies.
To try to get around that seeming conflict a lot of Christians tried creating ways to explain that fact away, ways like 'spiritual death' or 'separation from God' even though there is nothing in the actual story or the continuing saga of Adam and Eve that supports either.
Phat writes:
You say you have read the Bible. You treat it like a story when it suits you, and then claim marketing when you dont understand it. The text speaks for itself.
Stop and read what you just wrote. If the text speaks for itself then in the story found in Genesis 2&3 the serpent told the truth and the God character did not.
Phat writes:
Does the Nicene Creed suggest that Jesus is alive today?
No. The Nicene Creed does not suggest that Jesus is alive today any more than it suggest God is alive today. The term alive doesn't have much meaning when it comes to supernatural critters.
Would a ghost be alive? How about a zombie?
You also need to learn to read what is written in other places than the Bible.
I have not said that Jesus is not the Messiah, rather that Jesus is not the Old Testament Messiah.
And of course, I am no better than the authors of the Bible (or the totally unknown editors, redactors, committees of Canon). But that has absolutely nothing to do with what is actually written in the Bible.
What is written in Matthew has nothing to do with what is written in Genesis 2&3.
Again, learn to read.
In the Genesis 2&3 story there is a serpent.
It is not identified as Satan.
In the Old Testament Satan is NOT evil, Satan is a servant of God and only does what God wants Satan to do. Satan is an assayer, a tester, proofing.
We know for a fact that much of the Bible is fiction and fiction is often a great mechanism to market a product. Other examples from the Bible would be the genealogies that established relationships between disparate tribes in the area or the Exodus saga that marketed the concept of a chosen people.
Of course the new product Christianity conflicted with the old product Judaism. It still does. You even mention some of the conflicts. The Jewish Messiah will be human, a War Lord, a Prince and establish a Hebrew Nation on Earth.
Jesus didn't do that.
Jesus did not even come back and establish some new kingdom or end the world. And that was a real crisis for early Christians because the idea of the end times are upon us was rampant and almost universally accepted in Christianity. The idea of some indefinite future event had to be created and then marketed in perhaps the first major challenge to the new faith.
Also, why do you think Christianity makes no sense to me. After all, I am a Christian.
Again, if you believe that the text speaks for itself then go read the text. See what it actually says.
Edited by jar, : add missing wo to two.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Phat, posted 07-02-2013 2:23 AM Phat has not replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1367 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


(3)
Message 107 of 169 (702186)
07-02-2013 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Phat
07-02-2013 2:23 AM


Re: Let's go get stoned.
...infidels who attack scripture have as a motive discrediting it...
...you by nature hate the idea of God...
...The same stubborn nature that was in the men who stoned Stephen is in the minds and hearts of many self proclaimed intellectuals to this day. Reject the truth and embrace reality as you determine it. Sad mistake....
...the serpent whispering "the truth" in your ear yet again...
...But of course you have allowed intellectual humanists with no god in their heart apart from human wisdom convince you that Jesus was never a Messiah rejected by Israel. Thus I can see your confusion....
I'm sensing a real shift towards fundamentalism in your posts, you're sounding/reading more like Faith every day

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Phat, posted 07-02-2013 2:23 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 496 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 108 of 169 (702205)
07-02-2013 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Phat
07-02-2013 2:23 AM


Re: Let's go get stoned.
Phat writes:
The text speaks for itself.
Nothing that "speaks for itself" should be trusted. Everything should be confirmed. Only a fool would take any text as self-evident.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Phat, posted 07-02-2013 2:23 AM Phat has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 112 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 109 of 169 (702251)
07-02-2013 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by hooah212002
07-01-2013 5:39 PM


Hi hooah,
hooah212002 writes:
Certainly there are far better threads to argue about the oddities of the verbiage used in ICANT's special genesis and a "god is dead" thread is not that place.
But God is not dead.
The physical body He walked around here on earth is dead. It died when His Spirit left that body on the cross when He said: "it is finished".
quote:
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
But how do you expect to understand how God could produce eternal life for anyone who believes and trusts in what He did at Calvary if you can not understand how He caused the heavens and the earth to exist?
A person that does not believe Genesis 1:1 will never believe John 3:16, 17, and 18.
quote:
3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by hooah212002, posted 07-01-2013 5:39 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by hooah212002, posted 07-02-2013 7:26 PM ICANT has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 886 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(2)
Message 110 of 169 (702252)
07-02-2013 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by ICANT
07-02-2013 7:05 PM


The physical body He walked around here on earth is dead. It died when His Spirit left that body on the cross when He said: "it is finished".
Then it is erroneous to say "god died for you" since the jesus body was just a vehicle. Death for this god character never happened. Thanks for the clarification.
But how do you expect to understand how God could produce eternal life for anyone who believes and trusts in what He did at Calvary
Any god worth it's salt doesn't require some deep meditation or wonky interpretation in order to understand his message of "hey, here I am, you guys are killing me and in doing so I wipe all sin from earth and forgive you", but in actuality that doesn't work because if this avatar did do this, it failed miserably and wasted it's time.
if you can not understand how He caused the heavens and the earth to exist?
"poof, magic" is how he did it, right? Not very hard to understand how you guys claim he did it. Your book spends all of what, like a page or two describing the process? And yet you spend how many pages trying to explain it? And it takes you so much effort because your reading is so different from everyone else. Color me unimpressed.
Besides, this thread is not about genesis and you ought to take that problem up with your bible thumping brethren as I could care less which wrong version you read: all of them are baloney (balogna jsut doesn't look right here). Any god that requires you to go through a process of "ok, in order to understand THIS, you need to dig deeply in to this, but in order to grasp that, you need to read this which wasn't written until 100 years later". Not worth my time, sorry.
rAmen, pasta be upon you.

"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by ICANT, posted 07-02-2013 7:05 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by ICANT, posted 07-03-2013 4:44 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 112 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 111 of 169 (702283)
07-03-2013 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by hooah212002
07-02-2013 7:26 PM


Hi hooah,
hooah writes:
Then it is erroneous to say "god died for you" since the jesus body was just a vehicle. Death for this god character never happened. Thanks for the clarification.
You keep confusing me with other people.
I have said many times in posts on this site that the separation of God the Father and God the Son while the Son hung on the cross is what satisfied God the Father for the disobedience of the man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7.
I also said I do not understand how God the Father could separate Himself from God the Son. But any entity that could create the universe we see today could do anything He desired to do.
So the physical death the body suffered really had nothing to do with purchasing my eternal life. It only had to do with something mankind could see and relate too. Most have never contemplated what agony God the Son was in when God the Father separated Himself from Him as they had never been separated in eternity past. So He was separated from God the Father for 3 hours so I could spend eternity with God. Just as all those who will accept His offer of eternal life.
hooah writes:
Any god worth it's salt doesn't require some deep meditation or wonky interpretation in order to understand his message of "hey, here I am, you guys are killing me and in doing so I wipe all sin from earth and forgive you", but in actuality that doesn't work because if this avatar did do this, it failed miserably and wasted it's time.
And you know He wasted his time as you have died and came back to set us straight that He failed miserably.
hooah writes:
"poof, magic" is how he did it, right? Not very hard to understand how you guys claim he did it. Your book spends all of what, like a page or two describing the process? And yet you spend how many pages trying to explain it? And it takes you so much effort because your reading is so different from everyone else. Color me unimpressed.
Where does the Bible claim "poof, magic" and the heavens and the earth existed?
In fact, where in Genesis 1:1 is there any description of how God created the heavens and the earth?
quote:
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
That verse simply makes a statement that God caused the heavens and the earth to exist. It is a declarative statement of completed action. There is nothing lacking and He did a complete job in Genesis 1:1.
As I search through the Bible I can find no description of how or the duration of the beginning.
As you well know I am on record as saying that I believe the heavens and the earth have always existed in some form just not in the form we see them today.
So my feeble attempt to understand what took place in the DAY the LORD GOD created the heavens and the earth is just that. I can only take what the text says and try to understand what took place in that first light period that ended at Genesis 1:2 as the close of that dark period with morning was declared as DAY one.
Now if we can't understand that beginning to it's fullness, how can we begin to understand what God the Son suffered to buy back mankind out of the slavery he was sold into by the man formed from the dust of the ground?
But for anyone to think that the death of a physical body could pay the ransom for mankind not being separated from God for eternity is a lack of understanding of what took place at Calvary.
quote:
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Notice that Jesus said it is finished before He bowed his head and the physical body expired.
So to say God the Son died that mankind could be saved is not correct.
The ransom was paid when Jesus said: "it is finished".
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by hooah212002, posted 07-02-2013 7:26 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by hooah212002, posted 07-03-2013 5:08 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 113 by ringo, posted 07-04-2013 12:05 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 115 by Straggler, posted 07-04-2013 12:58 PM ICANT has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 886 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 112 of 169 (702285)
07-03-2013 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by ICANT
07-03-2013 4:44 PM


Can you try that again? Only this time with less gobbledy-gook? I understood nothing you wrote. But if that's what it takes to have a conversation with you (and it obviously is), I have no interest and bid this conversation farewell.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by ICANT, posted 07-03-2013 4:44 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 496 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 113 of 169 (702330)
07-04-2013 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by ICANT
07-03-2013 4:44 PM


ICANT writes:
The ransom was paid when Jesus said: "it is finished".
So why didn't he say that right off the bat and dispense with all of the drama?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by ICANT, posted 07-03-2013 4:44 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by ICANT, posted 07-04-2013 12:54 PM ringo has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 112 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 114 of 169 (702333)
07-04-2013 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by ringo
07-04-2013 12:05 PM


Hi ringo,
ringo writes:
So why didn't he say that right off the bat and dispense with all of the drama?
I quoted the scripture where Jesus did say it was finished while the earthly body was still alive.
All the drama has been added by those who do not know what the text says or just ignores what it says.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by ringo, posted 07-04-2013 12:05 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by ringo, posted 07-04-2013 1:15 PM ICANT has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 150 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 115 of 169 (702334)
07-04-2013 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by ICANT
07-03-2013 4:44 PM


Agony
ICANT writes:
Most have never contemplated what agony God the Son was in when God the Father separated Himself from Him as they had never been separated in eternity past. So He was separated from God the Father for 3 hours so I could spend eternity with God. Just as all those who will accept His offer of eternal life.
Are not most people separated from 'God the father'?
Is it really such agony?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by ICANT, posted 07-03-2013 4:44 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by AZPaul3, posted 07-04-2013 1:11 PM Straggler has not replied
 Message 118 by ICANT, posted 07-04-2013 1:39 PM Straggler has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 116 of 169 (702335)
07-04-2013 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Straggler
07-04-2013 12:58 PM


Ecstasy
Actually being separated from this particular non-existant ghostly godly thing lets you have all kinds of good sex without feeling the least bit guilty. And with more than one partner if you're so inclined.
Edited by AZPaul3, : Sometimes I can invent spelling that just takes ones breath away.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Straggler, posted 07-04-2013 12:58 PM Straggler has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 496 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 117 of 169 (702336)
07-04-2013 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by ICANT
07-04-2013 12:54 PM


ICANT writes:
All the drama has been added by those who do not know what the text says or just ignores what it says.
By "drama", I meant the crucifixion itself. If Jesus could finish his mission by just saying, "It is finished," why did he have to die at all?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by ICANT, posted 07-04-2013 12:54 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by ICANT, posted 07-04-2013 1:52 PM ringo has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 112 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 118 of 169 (702340)
07-04-2013 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Straggler
07-04-2013 12:58 PM


Re: Agony
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
Are not most people separated from 'God the father'?
Only those who have died without accepting His offer of eternal live.
You are not separated from God as you receive the on going life you have on earth from Him.
quote:
Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Straggler writes:
Is it really such agony?
The agony does not begin until the physical body dies and the spiritual being is placed in the holding place until the great white throne judgment at which time that spiritual being will be cast into the lake of fire and separated from God for eternity.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Straggler, posted 07-04-2013 12:58 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by AZPaul3, posted 07-04-2013 6:06 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied
 Message 135 by Straggler, posted 07-05-2013 5:58 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 112 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 119 of 169 (702341)
07-04-2013 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by ringo
07-04-2013 1:15 PM


Hi ringo,
ringo writes:
By "drama", I meant the crucifixion itself. If Jesus could finish his mission by just saying, "It is finished," why did he have to die at all?
The crucifixion was necessary. It showed the total rejection of God the Son by the religious hierarchy of the chosen people.
God the Son could not say "it is finished" until after the separation from God the Father was finished. There was a space of 3 hours that God the Father separated Himself from God the Son that satisfied God the Father as a ransom to restore mankind to the same relationship that mankind had with God in the Garden when they walked and talked with God.
The burial and resurrection of God the Son was to show to mankind that he would be raised and given a glorified body and could spend eternity with God.
The only condition placed on mankind receiving eternal life was he had to accept God's offer of eternal life.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by ringo, posted 07-04-2013 1:15 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by ringo, posted 07-04-2013 2:18 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 121 by Stile, posted 07-04-2013 2:20 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 496 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 120 of 169 (702342)
07-04-2013 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by ICANT
07-04-2013 1:52 PM


ICANT writes:
There was a space of 3 hours that God the Father separated Himself from God the Son that satisfied God the Father as a ransom to restore mankind to the same relationship that mankind had with God in the Garden when they walked and talked with God.
That's what I'm getting at: Why did it take all the drama of sending his "son" to earth and having him killed? Why couldn't God just say, "Okay, let's start over," and leave out all the silliness?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by ICANT, posted 07-04-2013 1:52 PM ICANT has not replied

  
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