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Author Topic:   Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2182 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(3)
Message 151 of 169 (702481)
07-07-2013 10:39 PM


Wimpy
Remember Wimpy:
"I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today."
Wimpy has nothing on the various shamans throughout history, down to the present day:
"Pay me now and I'll get you eternal life when you die."
Pretty close to the biggest scam every perpetrated on humankind. And there is no shortage of eager buyers.
But just call it religion and the Consumer Protection Agency can't touch it.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

  
vimesey
Member (Idle past 149 days)
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 152 of 169 (702488)
07-08-2013 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Faith
07-07-2013 9:58 PM


Re: Agony
Faith, you say:
He reveals to us that by the nature of the moral law of the universe we simply ARE all destined for punishment because we've all disobeyed that law, i.e., we're all sinners
The words "moral law of the universe" are somewhat odd. Are you suggesting that the universe has a moral law independent of God ? Or is the moral law in fact God's moral law ?

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Faith, posted 07-07-2013 9:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Faith, posted 07-08-2013 9:32 AM vimesey has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34046
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 6.2


(1)
Message 153 of 169 (702490)
07-08-2013 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Faith
07-07-2013 9:58 PM


Re: Agony
Faith writes:
He reveals to us that by the nature of the moral law of the universe we simply ARE all destined for punishment because we've all disobeyed that law, i.e., we're all sinners, all far from the moral purity required by the law.
But the god you try to market is not moral at all. The god you markets laws are very immoral.
AbE:
You claim that disasters and calamities are punishments from the god you try to market. Yet disasters and calamities punish indiscriminately. You try to get around that by trying to sell the "Well we are all sinners" and so we all deserve punishment, yet disasters and calamities do not punish all.
I'm sorry but the god you try to market comes off as some incompetent bully.
Edited by jar, : see AbE, hit wrong key.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 811 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 154 of 169 (702491)
07-08-2013 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Faith
07-07-2013 9:58 PM


Re: Agony
He reveals to us that by the nature of the moral law of the universe....
Eh? The Bible/the poster who goes by "Faith" gives us the moral law for the universe?? I might be willing to go with some small segments of conservative American Protestant culture, but I'm not quite sold on the universe as of today. You're been peddling this to us for quite a while, Faith, but you just aren't getting any more persuasive!

"The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails." H L Mencken

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Faith, posted 07-07-2013 9:58 PM Faith has not replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 142 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 155 of 169 (702492)
07-08-2013 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Faith
07-05-2013 2:50 PM


Re: Agony
Faith writes:
It's founded on evidence, very good evidence despite your inability or refusal to recognize it. All the effort that goes into doubting the credibility of the witnesses, their character, their motives, and so on, only serves to get rid of the very evidence that proves God.
If this 'evidence' you speak of depends upon subjective judgements about the character and motives of others then it isn't objective is it?
To demonstate that a chairs exists or that 1+1=2 doesn't depend on character references or some analysis of whether one's motives are pure.
Faith writes:
Uh yeah, pretty sophomoric stuff here.
Well I was trying to get you to consider the difference between things that are the same for everyone (objective) and things which are dependent on shared psychology, culture etc. (subjective).
Do you really not think there is a difference between the demonstrable existence of a chair or a mathematical result and something like the existence of God?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Faith, posted 07-05-2013 2:50 PM Faith has not replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 142 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 156 of 169 (702493)
07-08-2013 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by ICANT
07-05-2013 8:35 PM


ICANT what you (or I) find subjectively convincing has no bearing on what can be objectively demonstrated.
That the value of the Cosmic Microwave Background mathematically predicted by Big Bang theory exactly matches experimental result can be demonstrated to anyone. What you do with that information I guess is up to you..
Anyway — We really really shouldn’t drag yet another topic down your T=0 rabbit hole. Let’s stick to gods dying and the related sub issue of objective/subjective.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by ICANT, posted 07-05-2013 8:35 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1521 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 157 of 169 (702494)
07-08-2013 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by vimesey
07-08-2013 7:30 AM


Re: Agony
The words "moral law of the universe" are somewhat odd. Are you suggesting that the universe has a moral law independent of God ? Or is the moral law in fact God's moral law ?
Of course it's God's moral law, but I was trying to get across that it is all-pervasive and operates inexorably, with very fine-tuning too -- "the windmills of God grind exceeding fine." We are judged by the Law itself, which reflects God's moral nature, but the point is that it IS a Law, not a hit or miss thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by vimesey, posted 07-08-2013 7:30 AM vimesey has not replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 142 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 158 of 169 (702496)
07-08-2013 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by ICANT
07-05-2013 8:18 PM


Re: Agony
Straggler writes:
Which bit of the bible talks about being separated from God as 'agony'?
ICANT writes:
I think you were the one that introduced that word into this discussion.
Not it was you in Message 111
ICANT writes:
Most have never contemplated what agony God the Son was in when God the Father separated Himself from Him as they had never been separated in eternity past. So He was separated from God the Father for 3 hours so I could spend eternity with God. Just as all those who will accept His offer of eternal life.
So tell me - Where in the bible does it tell us that Christ was in agnoy as a result of being separated from God?
Or is this something you have inferred somehow? (if so how?)
ICANT writes:
I have no way of knowing what the numbers would be one way or the other.
Well if we make an estimate of the number of people that have ever lived Vs an esimate of the number of people that died as born again Christians then we should get a rough idea of what proportion of humanity are separated from 'God the father'.
ICANT writes:
You are not separated from God as you receive the on going life you have on earth from Him.
Straggler writes:
Are you talking about physical life when you talk about my "ongoing life"?
ICANT writes:
So yes I am referring to your physical life. When He withdraws the breath of life from your physical body it will cease to live.
But surely I receive this spiritual life from Him too - Right. So why does the end of physical life equate to being separeted from God? Why are the two related?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by ICANT, posted 07-05-2013 8:18 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 488 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 159 of 169 (702503)
07-08-2013 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Faith
07-07-2013 9:58 PM


Re: Agony
Faith writes:
Yes, but you aren't God, and I did take God's offer seriously because He's God and I know He can save me.
There is no more evidence that "God" is God than there is that I have a billion dollars.
Faith writes:
It is FROM this inevitable immutable miserable eternal destiny built into the fabric of things that He has made a special provision to save us.
But God is the one who created that "immutable" destiny. He's the one who could mutate it if he chose to. He chooses not to.
Faith writes:
... to take God's offer of salvation is really a pretty humbling thing.
Not at all. The God you preach is a thug with a gun pointed at your head. Obeying him is the easy way out.
Faith writes:
What's egotistical is refusing to believe Him on the basis of your own personal judgment of things, putting yourself above God and above those who believe, scorning His salvation.
It isn't the least bit egotistical to believe that he'll carry out his threats. It's at the very least foolish to believe he won't if you obey him.
Edited by ringo, : Added last sentence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Faith, posted 07-07-2013 9:58 PM Faith has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 3027 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 160 of 169 (702518)
07-08-2013 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Faith
07-05-2013 2:50 PM


Re: Agony
All the effort that goes into doubting the credibility of the witnesses, their character, their motives, and so on, only serves to get rid of the very evidence that proves God.
Because there is a lot more evidence that humans lie about miracles happening and make up stories, rather than actual miracles accuring and them telling the truth.
If this is the only evidence you have for the proof of god (a few eye witnesses) then you have no evidence at all.
character of the witnesses reliable
You can't possibly know that. This is what you have faith in. Just because a few people claim to have seen a miracle doesn't make that evidence of a miracle. Just as 1000's of people claiming to have seen bigfoot doesn't make that evidence for bigfoot.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Faith, posted 07-05-2013 2:50 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Faith, posted 07-08-2013 2:33 PM onifre has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1521 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 161 of 169 (702519)
07-08-2013 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by onifre
07-08-2013 2:14 PM


Re: Agony
No it is not faith that determines the reliability or credibility of the witnesses, it is ability to judge character from their writing and what is written about them. It's a judgment call, and either you have good judgment or you don't.
I don't think there have been thousands who have seen bigfoot but there are other reasons to doubt that stuff.
Instead of judging the actual witnesses you apply some alien standard about what people in general supposedly do, "evidence that humans lie about miracles happening." As I said you guys destroy the evidence with your bad judgment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by onifre, posted 07-08-2013 2:14 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by onifre, posted 07-08-2013 4:49 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 165 by Straggler, posted 07-08-2013 6:34 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 166 by PaulK, posted 07-09-2013 1:50 AM Faith has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 350 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 162 of 169 (702521)
07-08-2013 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Faith
06-27-2013 12:38 PM


Re: The Trinity
Faith
If you are going to ignore what scriptures say and just reiterate your view while ignoring your own bible then we cannot get anywhere. As I said, you want your cake and to eat it too child.
See ya.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Faith, posted 06-27-2013 12:38 PM Faith has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 350 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 163 of 169 (702523)
07-08-2013 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Coyote
06-27-2013 10:37 PM


Re: The Fall and "original sin"
Coyote
Thanks for that Atlas Shrugged quote.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Coyote, posted 06-27-2013 10:37 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 3027 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 164 of 169 (702526)
07-08-2013 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Faith
07-08-2013 2:33 PM


Re: Agony
it is ability to judge character from their writing and what is written about them.
It's still a matter of faith. You can no more judge their character than I can, you simply have faith that they are credible.
It's a judgment call, and either you have good judgment or you don't.
Is that what your faith hinders on, a judgement call?
Instead of judging the actual witnesses you apply some alien standard about what people in general supposedly do...
You apply the same standard to questions about bigfoot.
I don't think there have been thousands who have seen bigfoot
I don't think any have seen bigfoot.
but there are other reasons to doubt that stuff.
What reasons would that be?
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Faith, posted 07-08-2013 2:33 PM Faith has not replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 142 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(2)
Message 165 of 169 (702531)
07-08-2013 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Faith
07-08-2013 2:33 PM


Re: Agony
If this 'evidence' you speak of depends upon subjective judgements about the character and motives of others then it isn't objective is it?
To demonstate that a chair exists or that 1+1=2 doesn't depend on character references or some analysis of whether one's motives are pure.
How can you not see the difference?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Faith, posted 07-08-2013 2:33 PM Faith has not replied

  
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