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Author Topic:   Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1529 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 136 of 169 (702374)
07-05-2013 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Tangle
07-05-2013 2:29 AM


Re: Agony
I'm glad you're done with the silliness because it's YOUR silliness. I've been using the terms correctly, not you. Again you insist on making "objective" mean "material" which it does not mean. We have evidence for the objective existence of the invisible God, actual evidence, that many here have gone out of their way to pretend isn't evidence, mostly by mischaracterizing it. My faith is in something I am persuaded by MUCH evidence is an objective reality, meaning outside myself, independent of whatever I happen to think or anybody happens to think about Him. I also have experience of Him, just as one has experience of anything outside oneself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Tangle, posted 07-05-2013 2:29 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Straggler, posted 07-05-2013 9:15 AM Faith has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 150 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(2)
Message 137 of 169 (702379)
07-05-2013 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Faith
07-05-2013 7:34 AM


Re: Agony
Faith writes:
My faith is in something I am persuaded by MUCH evidence is an objective reality, meaning outside myself, independent of whatever I happen to think or anybody happens to think about Him.
This is very confused.
I am well aware that you subjectively believe that the God you have faith in is objectively real. But you are getting your subs and objs all conflated and confused.
We can all independently verify and agree that 1 + 1 = 2. We don't need faith to conclude this. The conclusion isn't dependent on culture or personal bias or what have you.
We can all independently verify and agree that an object compatible with the common conceptual meaning of the term 'chair' exists. We don't need faith to conclude the existence of a chair. Etc.
If an alien being completely ignorant of human culture and psychology came along we could demonstrate the existence of chairs and the fact that 1+1=2 because these are objectively derived conclusions.
However conclusively demonstrating that the object of your faith (AKA the Christian God) is objectively real would be impossible. Because this isn't an objective conclusion.
Do you see the difference.....?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Faith, posted 07-05-2013 7:34 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Faith, posted 07-05-2013 2:50 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 142 by ICANT, posted 07-05-2013 8:35 PM Straggler has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 496 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 138 of 169 (702388)
07-05-2013 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Faith
07-04-2013 9:38 PM


Re: Agony
Faith writes:
Those who have never heard the gospel will generally do much better in the Judgment than those who have heard and rejected it. No, He's certainly infinitely loving.
So God's love is infinite, yet different for some than for others - like the set of positive numbers, infinite on one end only.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Faith, posted 07-04-2013 9:38 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Faith, posted 07-05-2013 3:31 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1529 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 139 of 169 (702404)
07-05-2013 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Straggler
07-05-2013 9:15 AM


Re: Agony
My faith is in something I am persuaded by MUCH evidence is an objective reality, meaning outside myself, independent of whatever I happen to think or anybody happens to think about Him.
This is very confused.
I am well aware that you subjectively believe that the God you have faith in is objectively real. But you are getting your subs and objs all conflated and confused.
Sorry, I am not. I know the difference quite well and it is you who are confused.
There is no more subjectivity involved in my believing in the existence of God through the evidence given than there is in your believing in evolution through the evidence given.
I didn't say I need faith to believe in the existence of God, I said I believe that much on the evidence available, which I consider to be abundant and conclusive; what I have faith in is what is revealed about Him, His character, His promises to us, the plan of salvation and so on. I have faith in all this because I'm persuaded by the evidence that I can trust Him.
We can all independently verify and agree that 1 + 1 = 2. We don't need faith to conclude this. The conclusion isn't dependent on culture or personal bias or what have you.
Nor is my belief in the existence of God. If you all weren't so busy trashing the excellent evidence given you too could verify and agree to this.
We can all independently verify and agree that an object compatible with the common conceptual meaning of the term 'chair' exists. We don't need faith to conclude the existence of a chair. Etc.
If an alien being completely ignorant of human culture and psychology came along we could demonstrate the existence of chairs and the fact that 1+1=2 because these are objectively derived conclusions.
Uh yeah, pretty sophomoric stuff here.
However conclusively demonstrating that the object of your faith (AKA the Christian God) is objectively real would be impossible. Because this isn't an objective conclusion.
Beg to differ. It's founded on evidence, very good evidence despite your inability or refusal to recognize it. All the effort that goes into doubting the credibility of the witnesses, their character, their motives, and so on, only serves to get rid of the very evidence that proves God. You have yourselves to thank for this, the evidence itself is excellent, the character of the witnesses reliable to the assessment of any fair judge, and so on. And they attest to all the physical miracles you could possiblu want to prove the existence of God. But again you've eliminated the evidence so nothing is left to you. That's all that's going on here. The evidence itself is excellent.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Straggler, posted 07-05-2013 9:15 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Straggler, posted 07-08-2013 9:30 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 160 by onifre, posted 07-08-2013 2:14 PM Faith has replied
 Message 167 by Apothecus, posted 07-10-2013 5:15 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1529 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 140 of 169 (702407)
07-05-2013 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by ringo
07-05-2013 11:59 AM


Re: Agony
God's love is not different for some than for others. As scripture says, He provides for all equally, the rain and the sunshine to all, the just and the unjust.
However, He hates sin and in the end will judge it righteously, punishing it exactly, according to the sins of each individual and the amount of light they had and so on. The more you know but ignored or denigrated, the more severely you will be judged. That's the default position for all of us. There is no favoritism or partisanship about it, it is perfect justice.
But He has offered a way to avoid this consequence of sin, which cost a great deal, contrary to the badmouthing of some here, and those who receive His provision need not fear judgment at all. Interesting how you all just bend over backwards trying to make something evil out of something so good.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by ringo, posted 07-05-2013 11:59 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by ringo, posted 07-07-2013 3:54 PM Faith has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 112 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 141 of 169 (702432)
07-05-2013 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Straggler
07-05-2013 5:58 AM


Re: Agony
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
You say "only" but that constitutes the overwhelming majority of people that have ever lived doesn't it?
I have no way of knowing what the numbers would be one way or the other.
Straggler writes:
Are you talking about physical life when you talk about my "ongoing life"?
According to your words He does not have control of your spiritual life as of yet. So yes I am referring to your physical life. When He withdraws the breath of life from your physical body it will cease to live.
Straggler writes:
Why would physical fire have any sensory effect on a spiritual body?
I have no idea. Unless it was something that John used to try to convince people they should not go to that place. Matthew referred to is as outer darkness.
Straggler writes:
Which bit of the bible talks about being separated from God as 'agony'?
I think you were the one that introduced that word into this discussion.
Nevertheless, John tells us:
quote:
Revelation
20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
The devil and his angels are spiritual beings as well as the beast and the false prophet are. It is said they will be tormented for ever.
You are also a spiritual being that according to your words will be cast into that place if it exists, which you don't believe that it does exist.
But you have a choice that the devil and his angels did not have. You can receive eternal life with God and not have to go to that place.
If you are cast into that place whatever it is you will not only be tormented as the devil and his angels. You will remember every post that was posted to you telling you that you did not have to go to that place. You will have an eternity to wallow in self pity thinking about what could have been.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Straggler, posted 07-05-2013 5:58 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Straggler, posted 07-08-2013 9:47 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 112 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 142 of 169 (702433)
07-05-2013 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Straggler
07-05-2013 9:15 AM


Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
However conclusively demonstrating that the object of your faith (AKA the Christian God) is objectively real would be impossible. Because this isn't an objective conclusion.
Yes I would imagine I or anyone else would have just as much trouble convincing you that God exists as you would have convincing me that there was absolutely non existence at T=0 and one billionth of a second later the universe existed, without being caused to begin to exist.
Either one takes a lot of 'FAITH'.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Straggler, posted 07-05-2013 9:15 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Straggler, posted 07-08-2013 9:31 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3980 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 143 of 169 (702454)
07-06-2013 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Faith
07-04-2013 11:23 PM


Everybody does it
Faith writes:
just about all cultures
You know, when I was a kid my mom used to say
If "everybody" goes jumping off a bridge, that doesn't mean you can !!!
And that's why I didn't get to be in the Mountain Dew commercial ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Faith, posted 07-04-2013 11:23 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Faith, posted 07-06-2013 11:18 PM Iblis has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1529 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 144 of 169 (702456)
07-06-2013 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Iblis
07-06-2013 10:37 PM


Re: Everybody does it
What a very strange comparison you make. One would think that a religious concept showing up in a variety of ancient cultures would tell us something about how people used to think about some important things, but no, it's just cultures being silly like kids? This you want to be taken seriously? Huh?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Iblis, posted 07-06-2013 10:37 PM Iblis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Iblis, posted 07-07-2013 12:04 AM Faith has replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3980 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


(1)
Message 145 of 169 (702458)
07-07-2013 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Faith
07-06-2013 11:18 PM


Re: Everybody does it
I was trying to make my point softly, ma'am. I will know better.
Just about all cultures have at one time or another embraced institutionalized rape, torture, sodomy, and murder. Just about all cultures have for long periods treated women as less than slaves. Just about all cultures have persecuted Christians and Jews and sub-Saharan Africans. Just about all cultures have had wildly wrong ideas about natural law and cause and effect.
Some of us are growing out of it, though.

Any JW's in this fight, to stand up for the bible vs hell?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Faith, posted 07-06-2013 11:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Faith, posted 07-07-2013 12:09 AM Iblis has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1529 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 146 of 169 (702459)
07-07-2013 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Iblis
07-07-2013 12:04 AM


Re: Everybody does it
Never mind.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Iblis, posted 07-07-2013 12:04 AM Iblis has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 496 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 147 of 169 (702473)
07-07-2013 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Faith
07-05-2013 3:31 PM


Re: Agony
Faith writes:
Interesting how you all just bend over backwards trying to make something evil out of something so good.
You don't have to bend over backwards at all to see that eternal punishment is evil.
But that isn't the topic. The topic is whether or not it is egotistical to think that God would single you out for better treatment than me, for whatever reason.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Faith, posted 07-05-2013 3:31 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Faith, posted 07-07-2013 4:05 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1529 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 148 of 169 (702474)
07-07-2013 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by ringo
07-07-2013 3:54 PM


Re: Agony
The topic is whether or not it is egotistical to think that God would single you out for better treatment than me, for whatever reason.
He offered me the gospel and I took it. He offers you the same. So far you've rejected it and insulted Him for the offer as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by ringo, posted 07-07-2013 3:54 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by ringo, posted 07-07-2013 5:47 PM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 496 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 149 of 169 (702475)
07-07-2013 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Faith
07-07-2013 4:05 PM


Re: Agony
Faith writes:
He offered me the gospel and I took it. He offers you the same. So far you've rejected it and insulted Him for the offer as well.
If I offered you a billion dollars, you probably wouldn't take it seriously either - and you'd think I was evil if I threatened to torture you for refusing it.
And you'd be pretty egotistic to think if I had a billion dollars I'd offer it to you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Faith, posted 07-07-2013 4:05 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Faith, posted 07-07-2013 9:58 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1529 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 150 of 169 (702480)
07-07-2013 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by ringo
07-07-2013 5:47 PM


Re: Agony
Faith writes:
He offered me the gospel and I took it. He offers you the same. So far you've rejected it and insulted Him for the offer as well.
If I offered you a billion dollars, you probably wouldn't take it seriously either -
Yes, but you aren't God, and I did take God's offer seriously because He's God and I know He can save me.
and you'd think I was evil if I threatened to torture you for refusing it.
But God does nothing of the sort. He reveals to us that by the nature of the moral law of the universe we simply ARE all destined for punishment because we've all disobeyed that law, i.e., we're all sinners, all far from the moral purity required by the law. It is FROM this inevitable immutable miserable eternal destiny built into the fabric of things that He has made a special provision to save us.
And you'd be pretty egotistic to think if I had a billion dollars I'd offer it to you.
Again, you aren't God, who has a billion to offer to each of billions of people, just to state one difference from you, and to take God's offer of salvation is really a pretty humbling thing. Think how much pride you'd have to give up to do that. What's egotistical is refusing to believe Him on the basis of your own personal judgment of things, putting yourself above God and above those who believe, scorning His salvation. Now, THAT's pride.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by ringo, posted 07-07-2013 5:47 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by vimesey, posted 07-08-2013 7:30 AM Faith has replied
 Message 153 by jar, posted 07-08-2013 8:31 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 154 by Coragyps, posted 07-08-2013 9:15 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 159 by ringo, posted 07-08-2013 12:06 PM Faith has not replied

  
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