Summations Only

Not when you consider that it's becoming increasingly popular for some groups of christians to shy away from even labeling themselves as religious and that their christianity is not religion. "It's not a religion, it's a personal relationship" or "I'm not religious, I just have a personal relationship with jesus" or some other such nonsense.Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

Holy shit, you're right. I hadn't considered that at all. The OP certainly is kooky enough to fit within one of those groups. I could be entirely wrong, thanks.

I am always stunned that people who use those arguments fail to see how bad it makes them look. Have you ever seen someone argue in the other direction?Christianity is so bad, its like a form of disbelief.Creationists are just another kind of scientist, and creationism is nothing more than another branch of science.Why is it that some christians want so badly to portray atheism as a religion?Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

Two reasons, depending on that camp the Christians in question belong to.1) "All opinions are equally valid." This type of Christian wants to equate atheism with religion so as to claim equal rational basis. It's the same as when they say "science requires faith."2) The type who believe that "religion" denotes an organized faith and is "evil," whereas "true" Christianity is some sort of "relationship with Jesus" or "way of living" or whatever. They attach philosophical superiority to Christianity over all "religions," and want to put atheism in the same box.Both groups are hopelessly deluded about even the basic definitions of the terms they use.

Saw this picture and I couldn't help myself. Must share . . . Just in case it isn't loading:http://trinities.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/tu-quoque.jpgEdited by Taq, : No reason given.

IMHO it is never about religion. It is always about greed and power regardless of what the presenting issue is.

Not all wickedness is done for greed or power. Tribalism doesn't require any difference in wealth or control. It just requires an "other."Religious dogma spurs adherents to identify "others" that they might not otherwise identify. "Witches" and "heretics" are solely religious terms, and religious adherents have persecuted their fellow man on the sole basis of the religious dogma of the time. Let's be perfectly honest here - the women killed in Salem were not killed out of "greed" or some thirst for "power."It doesn't always happen. Neither is religion the sole source of inhumanity. Certainly witch burning and the torture of heretics have both become less popular today......but in some tribal areas in Africa, there are still, today, people, even children, accused of witchcraft and tortured and killed. Some are burned alive, some are abandoned as children to die alone in the wilds, some have had nails driven through their heads and bodies, all for reasons that can only be attributed to superstitious fear. Sure, sometimes the man telling the family that their child is a witch is charging and tells his lies for money...but the families and communities go along with it, and they gain nothing.I can bring up many more anecdotes. But don;t pretend that "it is never about religion." Of course it is. It's blatantly so if you have any comprehension of the facts, of history, and of the word "religion." If your opinion differs...well, some people are of the "opinion" that condoms spread HIV. Their opinions have little merit, and so does yours.Oh...the people spreading the belief that condoms spread HIV are Catholic clergy. Because their religious dogma tells them that contraception is forbidden. Not for power, or for wealth.Edited by Rahvin, : No reason given.

It may be done in the name of religion but then it goes back to your point about it being tribal. Religion in some ways is just another tribe and then it is about gaining power for the tribe and about an individual's position within that tribe.Even when you read back through the OT there are numerous stories involving their efforts to get Yahweh on their side in battles to gain power for the Jewish tribe.No matter what terrible things are done in the name of religion, and again I agree that religion is one of the things that divides us into various tribes, it still boils down to power and greed.As humans we are very tribal. I worked for a company that merged with another company where in many cases the two groups wouldn't even talk to each other. Our nationalities divide us, the colour of our skin divides us, our languages divide us and the list goes on.I still maintain that it is always fundamentally about power and greed with a large dash of pride thrown in.

Yeah, "religion" is that, no doubt, but the Biblical revelation is not religion, it's the supernatural gift of the true God which can save us from all that stupid tribalism.

That's right folks, all you have to do to escape all this tribe joining crap is.... to join my tribe.BTW, you're the only one who thinks your's isn't a religion. The rest of us know that it is, by definition.

Some one on this forum a while back said that essentially the Christian message was that we are all one tribe. I think that is exactly right. By that I don't mean that we are all Christian but that we are all one tribe as humans, and that we should regard each other that way whether we are Christian, Muslim, atheist or anything else.

The belief that the Bible is a supernatural gift is a religion.

Which of the thousands of christian sects and demoninations did they belong to? Southern Baptist? Eastern Orthodox?

If I remember correctly it wasn't one of the Christians on the forum.

It's interesting that you completely ignored the content of the post to which you were replying and chose instead to simply re-state your position as if no rebuttal had ever happened.Let's just take an example:"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."Now, "witches" are generally not a "tribe" or a political group (with the very modern exception of some new-age religions). They are not a "tribe." You cannot gain "power"over a group identified basically at random and only by third parties. They had no money or property to steal.A "witch" in historical terms has simply been an innocent victim, generally someone who doesn't "look right" or who is socially isolated within the community, upon whom blame can be heaped for the community's misfortunes. It's virtually identical to the ancient practice of "scapegoating," the ritual transfer of the sins of the community onto a goat who is then slaughtered or released into the wild to cleans the community of sin; a practice that eventually gave rise to the Christian sacrifice of Jesus, where a human being dies for the sins of all believers as opposed to an animal for a village.Today "witches" are identified by religious leaders within communities, and then the communities band together to kill the "witch." Often they are no more than children, and their own parents join in their ritualistic, torturous murder.I say again, there is no motivation of greed or power at play here. A "witch" has no authority to subvert; in most cases they are already at the mercy of the community at large. They have no money, as they are frequently children. Neither is it about "pride."This form of inhumanity is but a single example of how religion drives people to do evil.I'll repeat that religion is not the root cause of the problem - the root cause is that people will believe unsupported assertions and will bias their beliefs in favor of emotionally preferable worldviews as opposed to ones grounded in reality through evidenciary support. But religion is a symptom of that disease.These superstitions foment fear. This fear has no other cause - it is generated solely through the instruction of religious leaders and holy books. There is no other motive involved.As easily as superstitious nonsense can lead to harmless activities like reading a horoscope, they can also direct the irrational human mind toward throwing neighbors into a pit and burning them alive because they are casting spells on the rest of the community, and it's their fault there wasn't enough rain last season.You can maintain your position all you want, GDR. You can continue to disregard reality and repeat your pre-existing position. You'll just continue to be wrong.Would it be more convincing if I posted videos of these horrors? They rank as some of the most disturbing things I've ever seen, personally, but maybe the reality would sink in a bit more if you saw a few people beaten with sticks and burned alive while the entire community watches, on film, because they were accused of being "witches." Not re-enactments. Not fake.