Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

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PURPLEDAWN:
We understand that you are discussing living beings and we understand that you applied the first meaning of the word eternal to living beings. Eternal in the Bible is really about not having an end, not about not having a beginning depending on how it is used. Having neither beginning nor end is usually saved for the Creator.

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ALTER2EGO -to- PURPLEDAWN: Since that is your claim, I am sure you will have no problem quoting scriptures that indicate: "Eternal in the Bible is really about not having an end, not about not having a beginning." I have been reading the Bible for years and never once came across anything remotely suggesting that.

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Since that is your claim, I am sure you will have no problem quoting scriptures that indicate: "Eternal in the Bible is really about not having an end, not about not having a beginning." I have been reading the Bible for years and never once came across anything remotely suggesting that.

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Strange since it's all over the NT.Also from Message 349: Also notice I said that it depends on how the word is used, which you didn't bold.Ancient mountains (Deuteronomy 33:15) - Eternal God (Deuteronomy 33:27). Same adjective. qedemAccording to the stories in Genesis, God created everything. This means the mountains had a beginning. Qedem doesn't carry the meaning of without beginning and end.If the Blue Letter site is right, this is the only word translated as eternal in the OT. What does eternity in the Bible mean?In the NT, the word aiōnios is the closest to the meaning you embrace. Notice it says without, not cannot. Without means absence of and cannot basically means unable to. Just because we don't know when or if YHWH had a beginning, doesn't mean he cannot have a beginning.All the occurrences of this word are listed in the link. The majority of the verses are referring to everlasting life, fire, destruction, etc. Once the adjective refers to YHWH in Romans 16:26. The verse before this one uses the same adjective to mean long ago. Everlasting life is something that is promised to Christians after they die. There is a beginning to eternal life. Eternal judgment starts after one's death. More about not having an ending as opposed to not having a beginning. As I said, "Having neither beginning nor end is usually saved for the Creator."Edited by purpledawn, : Changed 33:2 to 33:27

This question is trivially easy to answer. Doing a search through the King James Version for eternal life turns up the following:BibleGateway - Keyword Search: eternal lifeMatthew 19:16
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.Mark 10:17
And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?Mark 10:30
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.Luke 10:25
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?Luke 18:18
And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?John 3:15
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.John 4:36
And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.John 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.Matthew 19:16
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.Mark 10:30
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.Surely for any human with a navel, eternal life means life with a beginning. Are the above examples sufficient?So how did you miss the above? Does the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures use different phrasing?Yes. That translation uses everlasting life in most places, but does include these uses of eternal for events having a beginning or an end:Jude 1:6And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under
dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.Habakkuk 3:6
He stood still, that he might shake up the earth. He saw, and
then caused nations to leap. And the eternal mountains got to be smashed.The commentary in this translation refers repeatedly to humans having eternal life.

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ALTER2EGO:
Since that is your claim, I am sure you will have no problem quoting scriptures that indicate: "Eternal in the Bible is really about not having an end, not about not having a beginning." I have been reading the Bible for years and never once came across anything remotely suggesting that.

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PURPLEDAWN
Strange since it's all over the NT.

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ALTER2EGO -to- PURPLEDAWN:
It depends which Bible translation you are relying on, since many of the Bible versions contain translation errors aka translation blunders. But despite the translation errors, if you pay attention to the context (the surrounding words, verses, and chapters that are related to the verse you are focusing on), you are able to see past the translation blunder and get the correct understanding of what the Bible is actually saying.Clearly, you are not paying attention to context. You are cherry picking the words "eternal" and "everlasting" from the verses and ignoring everything else. I will demonstrate it to you once you quote your first three or four verses from the New Testament where you are seeing those particular words.

I provided a link in Message 362 which has a list of the verses that use the word aiōnios.Pick any three you want or pick three from NoNukes post.Explain the context we are missing.

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PURPLEDAWN
Ancient mountains (Deuteronomy 33:15) - Eternal God (Deuteronomy 33:2). Same adjective. qedem

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According to the stories in Genesis, God created everything. This means the mountains had a beginning. Qedem doesn't carry the meaning of without beginning and end.

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ALTER2EGO -to- PURPLEDAWN:
I see your confusion. You are reading from a Bible that uses the word "everlasting," and you equate that to mean "eternal." Let me explain. The words "everlasting" and "eternal" are synonyms, which equates to one of two things:(1) They have the same meaning.OR IF NOT(2) They are close in meaning but do not mean the same thing. DEFINITION OF "SYNONYM":
The definition of a synonym is a word that means the same or nearly the same thing as another word.
http://www.yourdictionary.com/synonymKeep that in mind, because I will direct your attention to it again at the end of this post.The link you provided gives the following translation for Deuteronomy 33:15 and quotes it from the King James Version. I will repeat the quotation below. Notice the words that I type in all caps and bold within the scriptural quotation."And for the chief things of the ANCIENT mountains, and for the precious things of the LASTING hills," (Deuteronomy 33:15 — King James Version)The word "ancient" does not mean "eternal." DEFINITION OF "ANCIENT":
"Ancient is defined as someone or something that has lasted a very long time."
http://www.yourdictionary.com/ancientAs you yourself said above, the mountains had a beginning. So clearly, they could not be eternal. The KJV quotation that I provided above also uses the expression "lasting hills," DEFINITION OF "LASTING":
"existing or continuing a long while : enduring "
Lasting Definition & Meaning - Merriam-WebsterThe KJV correctly translated that particular verse, because neither "ancient" nor "lasting" are words that equate to "eternal." The word "eternal" refers to something that has always existed and will never cease to exist. DEFINITION OF "ETERNAL": Eternal means not having a beginning or an end.
http://www.yourdictionary.com/eternal"without beginning or end; existing through all time; EVERLASTING" (Source: Webster's New World College Dictionary)Notice that the synonym for "eternal" is indicated in the second definition, which I bolded and typed in all caps (in order to bring it to your attention). The routine of some dictionaries is to add the synonym after a colon or semicolon, which is what occurred with Webster's Dictionary directly above.Remember, words that are synonyms do not always have the same meanings. That is the case with the word "everlasting" vs. the word "eternal." Their meanings are not quite the same. I will expand on this, if you wish.FYI: The only being in existence that is eternal is Almighty God Jehovah. Everything else had a beginningmeaning, they were created. That includes the pre-human Jesus Christ prior to his arrival on earth.

I'm working with the Hebrew in the OT. Message 362The examples from Deuteromony use the same Hebrew word, which is qedem . IOW, the God of old. Olam is a synonym of qedem and according to Strong's it isn't translated as eternal in the OT. Further verses using olam or listed in the link for olam. Neither of these words carries the meaning of cannot have a beginning or end. Here the story tells us that man could take from the tree of life and live forever (olam). It didn't matter that the man was created and had a beginning. It was more about the long duration of living or the lack of known ending.Olam is also used in reference to God and translated as Everlasting God. As I said before the word in reference to God carries more of an always has been and always will be idea, not "cannot have a beginning or end". Isaiah 40:28

Nonsense. The KJV uses eternal for things with beginnings but no ends as I have shown. And so does the Jehovah Witness favored translation.

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PURPLEDAWN:
I provided a link in Message 362 which has a list of the verses that use the word aiōnios.

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ALTER2EGO -to- PURPLEDAWN:Neither the Hebrew word olam nor the Greek word aiōnios mean eternal. They both refer to time periods that are anything but eternal. You are relying on Bible translations that contain translation errors. This is confirmed by the following source, which I am partially quoting below, followed by the weblink to the source. I encourage to go to the weblink were you will see examples for why the words "olam" and "ainios" could not possibly refer to things that are eternal.

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Many bible-versions contain such expressions as for ever and everlasting. An example: The Old Testament part of NASB-95 contains the expression forever in almost 300 passages, and the word everlasting in more than 100 passages. Such translations can easily cause casual readers of the Scriptures to think that the things mentioned in those passages are for all time to come (time without end). But, that is not the case.

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Most bible-versions fail to translate the Hebrew word olam in a correct way. Through that, they make it seem that many instructions that were given to ancient Israel, would be for ever (or everlasting or eternal, or whatever) and would thus apply even today. That is not true, of course.

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More linguistics, for those who are interested: In the ancient Greek text of the Septuagint (LXX), the Hebrew olam is mostly translated as ain or (sometimes) ainios. Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon by Henry George Liddell and Robert Scott shows that the old Greek word ain meant a period of existence, such as life-time, life, an age, generation, posterity (ho melln ain), a long space of time, of old, for ages (ap’ ainos), a definite space of time, an era, epoch, age, period, and so on.

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http://www.biblepages.net/fg09.htm

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PURPLEDAWN:
I provided a link in Message 362 which has a list of the verses that use the word aiōnios.

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Pick any three you want or pick three from NoNukes post.

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Explain the context we are missing..

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ALTER2EGO -to- PURPLEDAWN:
The context is there for all to see, except those who refuse to accept that the word "eternal" only refers to something without a beginning or an end. All of the cherry picked verses that NoNukes presented are with reference to beings that had a beginning (humans and angels), as well as things that had a beginning (mountains). That is the clue that the word "eternal" should not have been used in those verses during translation to English. You are relying on Bibles with errors by English translators. That's why we all need to do private research, so that we will not be misled.Things that were created had a beginning. Something that is eternal cannot have a beginning. In other words, NoNukes presented translation blunders. The English translations that he provided are all erroneous.What most people do not realize is that Bible translations were not done by inspiration of God; therefore, they are prone to human error.Edited by Alter2Ego, : No reason given.

Message 361

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ALTER2EGO -to- PURPLEDAWN:

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Neither the Hebrew word olam nor the Greek word aiōnios mean eternal. They both refer to time periods that are anything but eternal. You are relying on Bible translations that contain translation errors. This is confirmed by the following source, which I am partially quoting below, followed by the weblink to the source. I encourage to go to the weblink were you will see examples for why the words "olam" and "ainios" could not possibly refer to things that are eternal.

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Thanks for confirming my position. As we can see the Hebrew and Greek words can describe a distant past or distant future depending on how they are used. In the NT, they are mostly used concerning distant future or unseen end. Those are the words translated as eternal in the Bible.If as you say, the translation is incorrect, then rules for eternal beings are from your own imagination and not from the Bible.In Message 5, you said you considered the Bible to be reliable. But you play the fallible human or bad translation card as support for your position.Dictionaries provide a list of words and how they are used by the population. Language changes over time. A simplistic English definition of an adjective does not define the rules of existence for other beings.Also without beginning, isn't the same as cannot or can never have a beginning. So we are back to the fact that you have no support for your rules of existence concerning eternal beings. The definition does not support your claim that they cannot or can never have a beginning or end.

Why, hello alter! Up to your same ol' jw tricks I see! Same song, different instrument...

Is he always dishonest?

Alter belongs to about 30 different websites using the same exact arguments that she has brought here. Her questions, responses, and beliefs are almost verbatim on each site. If you google "Alter2Ego" you'll find a multitude of sites for which she has been a member. She doesn't ever identify herself as a jw, but always a "Christian", and the only "bible" she uses is the made-up one re-written by the watchtower folks in the 1800's. It is my understanding that what she does and has done for years (I found a site that she joined in 2009) on the internet it totally against the jw rules. If her superiors knew what she was doing, she'd be in BIG trouble.She is a phony. I think she has serious mental problems and even more serious spiritual problems. She has been banned from most sites or left in a huff as she did another site for which I belong in a huff accusing us of "mudslinging" and for "persecuting" her. She called the mods who tried to correct her "trinitarian conspirators".So, to answer your question, YES. SHE IS ALWAYS DISHONEST.

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PURPLEDAWN:
A simplistic English definition of an adjective does not define the rules of existence for other beings.

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Also without beginning, isn't the same as cannot or can never have a beginning.

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So we are back to the fact that you have no support for your rules of existence concerning eternal beings. The definition does not support your claim that they cannot or can never have a beginning or end.

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ALTER2EGO -to- PURPLEDAWN:Actually, we are back to the fact that you refuse to accept that the word "eternal" only applies to someone or something that does not have a beginning or an end. Now you are telling me what Greek philosophers believed. Greek philosophers were pagans. They did not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible.In any event, since you are content in believing that every time you see the word "eternal" in the Bible with reference to created beings (humans and angels) and created things (mountains) which clearly had a beginning--but you insist the rendition is correct--go ahead and believe that. Do not expect any further response from me as far as the word "eternal" is concerned.Neither should you expect any further response from me dealing trinity. In other words, I will not respond to anything else you post in this thread.I'm moving on.Edited by Alter2Ego, : No reason given.Edited by Alter2Ego, : No reason given.