Christianity is Morally Bankrupt

Actually Faith, the idea of the Holy Spirit is one of the least supportable parts of basic Christian Doctrine with almost no Biblical evidence. It did not even enter Christian Doctrine until the Third Century, over two hundred years after Jesus and even then most of Christianity denied the concept of the Holy Spirit.

It's got hundreds of Biblical references in support of it which I've posted hdere many times and I'm sure you've seen them so I won't bother posting them again. And the entire history of Christianity has always affirmed it. The Holy Spirit is amply testified in the New Testament, your historical understanding is a tad lacking.

I can certainly learn more about "the topic" if I specifically know what this topic is. In regards to jar, one must remember his heretical views, to begin with.

He believes that everyone is essentially *saved* as the concept is understood among traditional historic Christianity. It's a bit Catholic of him. As you know, anyone who adheres to the rituals of the church and labels themself as a member magically becomes a member...no inner regeneration required! But of course, that is a weak argument. Our critics can rightly point to our (specifically the Christians here at EvC) behavior and say that our occasional outbursts and temper tantrums are highly suggestive of a lack of Spirit rather than an indwelling. All I can say to any of them is that they need look no further than the mirror to see similar examples of carnal manifestation. Theodoric doesn't even count in these discussions, for he lacks a belief, despite claims of scholarly investigation into scripture he has fallen for intellectual arguments from the mythicists as well as being somewhat liberally minded and contemptuous of Western Christianity in general. ringo also claims no belief in either the original source (GOD Himself) or of the messenger (Jesus Christ) except to adopt the words of the Bible into his secular humanist view of caring for his fellow humans in the push for global unity and social ideals which prohibit any one person from having the right to individual wealth.

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Granted, I am not as conservative as you are, and I can see the plausibility of such a communion among humanity, but I would emphasize that it would only work if the humans in question were transformed and renewed...rejuvenated through surrender and awareness of the Spirit of God.

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jar will follow this up by asking--yet again--what I even mean and calling my response "word salad". Don't let these arguments dissuade you. These guys know damn well what I mean and enjoy seeing me try and explain the obvious. Perhaps, however, since they obviously don't have this Spirit that they all have fallen for the counterfeit spirit of this new age...this kum ba yah, lovey-dovey inclusive unity which allows for diversity and for anyone and everyone to keep their own beliefs while essentially claiming that all should be alowed in heaven despite the rugged individualism. In conclusion, Faith all I can say is that yes, you and I both need to work on our surrender to the Living Spirit of God but that our opponents have far more work to do in surrendering their own minds. They likely won't do it...though once this world falls apart, which is going to likely happen in the next 20-30 years that they realize that just maybe the crazy Christians were on to something. God will draw all men unto Himself, but they will always have the freedom to resist such a pull.

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There are plenty of people whom I can help on a daily basis whom I don't have to argue with in order to get anywhere with them. meanwhile, the inclusive group will joyfully come together as one secular humanist world under the sway of a common spirit...little realizing that what they have is the spirit of the antichrist. If Jesus Christ Himself came to EvC Forum, He would likely be mocked and rejected here.

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Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

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Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

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You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

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As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

He would be mocked if he spouted the drivel that you fundie Christians come up with by the yard.
But I suspect he'd come across as pretty decent guy, if a bit precious.And of course he's got the miracles so he could prove his shit. Or not. Therefore no problem.

Post the actual evidence Faith.BUT the fact remains that the whole concept of the Holy Spirit was a later HUMAN creation over 200 years after Jesus and at the time opposed by most Christians.You cannot doubt that fact since it is actual Christian history.

Oh nonsense, what "fact" are you talking about, you aren't even offering some proof of it. Sorry, the fact is that the doctrine of the Holy Spirit is easily established biblically and that's the bottom line.

Actually, the New Testament is replete with examples of Jesus performing miracles but not taking any credit for them. The example of the Wedding booze run is just such an instance, Jesus miracles the best wine into existence but lets everyone think the host just saved the best for last.

Except obviously the writer who reported it and others such as His mother knew. And even those who didn't know at first no doubt found out.

Sheesh Faith, learn the very basics of Christianity.

quote:

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The first defense of the doctrine of the Trinity was in the early 3rd century by the early church father Tertullian. He explicitly defined the Trinity as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and defended his theology against "Praxeas", though he noted that the majority of the believers in his day found issue with his doctrine.

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From this source.The original version of the Nicene Creed did not mention the Holy Spirit; it was added in a later revision.This is very basic Christian history Faith.

There is no evidence that anyone other than the mother knew but we have no clue who wrote the story and the actual story itself says that Jesus did NOT take credit for the miracle.Sorry Faith but once again, the fact is what is actually written, not the Bible created in YOUR image.

But the writer knew. And if the writer knew others knew.

If they read the story, yes.BUT that is still irrelevant.The point is that Jesus in the actual stories often did not take credit for the miracles and even in several cases told the people not to talk about it.Jesus performing miracles to impress the crowd is a later invention in story telling, particularly from the author or authers of John.

No, others contemporary with the writer knew if the writer knew.John says at the end of his gospel that he recorded the miracles specifically for the purpose of leading people to believe in Jesus. Jesus did in many cases tell people not to report them but they did report them anyway. And what point are you trying to make anyway? Not taking credit for them means He gave the credit to God and He also claims to be God.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

What Tertullian did was show that the doctrine is in the Bible. This is what many of the early apologists did, such as Athanasius. The fact that many objected just shows the need for him to spell it out because it is clearly in the Bible, he just had to draw it out and teach it. It had to be defended against heretics and that's what those apologists had the task of doing. So he spelled it out in much more detail to establish it in the theological record. It's perfectly silly to think the idea originated with Tertullian. The Creeds incorporated doctrines when it had become necessary for the congregations to learn them after they'd been challenged by heretics. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

No one said he invented it but the FACT remains that it was NOT established doctrine until hundreds of years after Jesus. Then the Apologist having created the Holy Ghost in their image started pulling pieces parts from the Bible to support their predetermined conclusions.Faith the fact is that even 200 years after Jesus the concept of the Holy Spirit and the Trinity were not broadly accepted. Even today Faith there are Non-Trinitarian Christians.Whether you like it or not, reality exists.Edited by jar, : add a missing "n"