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Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 466 of 652 (867813)
12-03-2019 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 464 by Faith
12-03-2019 2:42 PM


Re: The purpose of it all
Tangles argument would make sense if God foreknew who would live eternally and who would experience the final spiritual death. One must admit that such a proposition is serious. If I believed that I was saved and was heading for a cushy retirement in Heaven, would I thus try as hard to get everyone on the planet to join me there or would I be worse than God and pick and choose whom I wanted to go with me? And what would I do with the ones who dug in their heels and rejected God? Drag them along anyway, rendering their free will as an illusion?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 464 by Faith, posted 12-03-2019 2:42 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 467 by Faith, posted 12-03-2019 3:13 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 467 of 652 (867816)
12-03-2019 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 466 by Phat
12-03-2019 2:57 PM


Re: The purpose of it all
All those things bother us all, but we can only have faith that God knows what He's doing although we haven't a clue. Basic respet for God requires that. He's immensely greater than we are, to put it ridiculously mildly, and He is perfect righteousness. Our job is to do our best to pray for others and do our best to persuade them to believe, and leave the outcome to Him. We aren't God, trust Him to do the best thing which we won't appreciate until the very end. That is basic humility from our position as ignorant creatures.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by Phat, posted 12-03-2019 2:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 468 of 652 (867820)
12-03-2019 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 464 by Faith
12-03-2019 2:42 PM


Re: The purpose of it all
Faith writes:
but if you really consider what it means you wouldn't like the idea of living in a good world that didn't involve any conflict at all, nothing to think about, no problems to solve, no evil to vanguish.
What you're describing is heaven, the ultimate goal with no evil and no struggle. Are you saying heaven isn't, well, heaven?
You still don't understand the question.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 464 by Faith, posted 12-03-2019 2:42 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 479 by Faith, posted 12-05-2019 1:00 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 469 of 652 (867823)
12-03-2019 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 465 by Phat
12-03-2019 2:48 PM


Re: Untangling Why
Phat writes:
Yes. death is a part of this life. We see it every Fall and Spring. Are you asking why God allows death? Or are you asking why suffering is also part of the process?
I suppose I should be grateful that you're getting at least a bit closer to the question I'm asking you.
But I'm not asking either of those questions.
Is it specifically evil in that only some get to go(or to evolve to that level)? Or is it evil that they suffer during the process.
The entire experiment is evil.
I've been wondering why you, Faith and GDR can't even understand the question I'm asking and I finally think I have an analogy.
You're in the Matrix and accept the regime as real and necessary. I'm looking at the machine from outside and see the evil. You can't step out of the system and ask the question why it's set up the way it is.
I'll try again. Forget the way it is. Pretend you're god and nothing exists. Now explain to me why you set up the experiment the evil way it's set up and why it's necessary at all?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 465 by Phat, posted 12-03-2019 2:48 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 471 by Phat, posted 12-04-2019 3:11 PM Tangle has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 470 of 652 (867837)
12-03-2019 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 425 by GDR
12-01-2019 6:30 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
GDR writes:
Percy writes:
Instead of seeing it as Tangle rejecting the answer, see it as describing why the answer makes no sense to him - or me.
I think the problem is that you want an answer that is absolute.
I think Tangle and I are being honest and forthright with you. We aren't hiding our reasons for rejecting your answer so that you have to guess why. We're telling you our honest reaction to your answer: it makes no sense to us.
I am simply suggesting that in a world that is subject to entropy and decay, and an evolutionary process that requires mutations to progress, we have a world where mental illness, cancer and natural disasters can evolve. I am someone who is convinced that God is a god of love for all of His creatures and that God resurrected Jesus vindicating His life, message and death,
I wasn't able to make sense out of this. The two sentences seem unrelated to each other, and the second sentence ends with a comma. Was there supposed to be more?
With that in mind I then can only believe that God has limitations in His relation to this world. But I also believe that this life is a prelude to the life that you and Tangle complain that we don't have now.
Can't make sense out of this either, still feels like some part of the explanation is missing.
And again, this is belief it isn't an absolute.
And again, the issue is that we can't make sense out of your beliefs.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 425 by GDR, posted 12-01-2019 6:30 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 478 by GDR, posted 12-04-2019 8:03 PM Percy has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 471 of 652 (867883)
12-04-2019 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 469 by Tangle
12-03-2019 4:15 PM


Two Descriptions of God: In and Out of the matrix
tangle writes:
The entire experiment is evil.
Which experiment? I'm now confused. You have gone on record as an atheist. You claim that Christians make up whatever story they choose to believe. I might concede that point, but let's continue.
Apparently you have judged--for yourself--the way that the "god character" actually is based entirely on a book written--we can agree--by humans. The jury is out regarding the inspiration for the book--at least on my end. So now what?
You are asking me the following:
Tangle writes:
You're in the Matrix and accept the regime as real and necessary. I'm looking at the machine from outside and see the evil. You can't step out of the system and ask the question why it's set up the way it is.
Correct. I suppose that I could hypothetically step outside the system and ask why this God of human-created literature appears to you as clearly evil and why He appears to Faith, GDR, and myself as a fair God. My only response to that is, at least in my case, God is good.
Tangle writes:
I'll try again. Forget the way it is. Pretend you're god and nothing exists. Now explain to me why you set up the experiment the evil way it's set up and why it's necessary at all?
As long as we are pretending, you are a bit like Job (except not yet as wiped out) and I am the God character. Shall we use the Job analogy or do you want me to act as if I am a modern-day God and have not yet created anything? So how am I supposed to explain myself to anybody? You...puny human that you are,(as am I) are shaking our fist at this God and concluding that He is evil...all with no knowledge of anything beyond what the old book says. Is that about right?
If so, I am prepared to imagine God as more than what is described in the book. GDR does the same thing. I think its human nature for believers to elaborate a bit on how God thinks. You would claim that the description is limited to the book. I would argue that people had descriptions long before they were written down.
So how do you want me to answer the second part of your question, keeping in mind that I'm not God and neither are you? You seem to be rallying the critical thinking part of our collective minds to reject the book, the religion, and any created or imagined characters. But you are asking someone who is in the matrix, remember?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by Tangle, posted 12-03-2019 4:15 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 477 by Tangle, posted 12-04-2019 4:58 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 472 of 652 (867893)
12-04-2019 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 458 by ringo
12-03-2019 12:24 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
ringo writes:
There's no reason to think the laws of nature require a "lawmaker".
So, in the beginning, there were chemicals. Is that a proper summation of your position? It appears that if we can talk about emergent properties of matter than at best we can say that nature has laws based on emergent properties of itself. Thuus, you would likely agree with old Stephen Hawking in that
quote:
Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist. It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going.
As brilliant as he was, his mind could not understand Lou Gehrig's disease. What makes you think he understands the universe well enough to bump God off of the podium?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 458 by ringo, posted 12-03-2019 12:24 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 473 by ringo, posted 12-04-2019 4:04 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 473 of 652 (867895)
12-04-2019 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 472 by Phat
12-04-2019 3:58 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Phat writes:
As brilliant as he was, his mind could not understand Lou Gehrig's disease. What makes you think he understands the universe well enough to bump God off of the podium?
What makes you think you understand better than Hawking?

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 472 by Phat, posted 12-04-2019 3:58 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 474 by Phat, posted 12-04-2019 4:28 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 474 of 652 (867897)
12-04-2019 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 473 by ringo
12-04-2019 4:04 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
I believe that God exists. I believe that I have enough confidence to say this to myself. Whether or not you once believed or not, only you can say. It seems to me that you let critical thinking and evidence talk you out of your belief. I blame the militant atheist writers. They have an agenda to eliminate God-centered thinking.
My understanding supports my belief. Your understanding eliminated yours.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 473 by ringo, posted 12-04-2019 4:04 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 475 by jar, posted 12-04-2019 4:46 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 476 by ringo, posted 12-04-2019 4:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 475 of 652 (867898)
12-04-2019 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 474 by Phat
12-04-2019 4:28 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Phat writes:
It seems to me that you let critical thinking and evidence talk you out of your belief.
What is it called when someone does not allow the evidence and critical analysis to override beliefs?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by Phat, posted 12-04-2019 4:28 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 476 of 652 (867900)
12-04-2019 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 474 by Phat
12-04-2019 4:28 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Phat writes:
It seems to me that you let critical thinking and evidence talk you out of your belief.
That's what it's for. It's critical thinking and evidence that talk you out of believing in monsters under the bed. You should never let belief talk you out of critical thinking.
Phat writes:
I blame the militant atheist writers. They have an agenda to eliminate God-centered thinking.
Impossible. I've never read a word by militant atheist writers.
Phat writes:
My understanding supports my belief. Your understanding eliminated yours.
Word salad.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by Phat, posted 12-04-2019 4:28 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 477 of 652 (867901)
12-04-2019 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 471 by Phat
12-04-2019 3:11 PM


Re: Two Descriptions of God: In and Out of the matrix
Phat writes:
Which experiment? I'm now confused. You have gone on record as an atheist. You claim that Christians make up whatever story they choose to believe. I might concede that point, but let's continue.
Apparently you have judged--for yourself--the way that the "god character" actually is based entirely on a book written--we can agree--by humans. The jury is out regarding the inspiration for the book--at least on my end. So now what?
Is there anything in anything I've said that mentions a book? It's not remotely about your bloody book. Please read what I've written and try to deal with the question.
Correct. I suppose that I could hypothetically step outside the system and ask why this God of human-created literature appears to you as clearly evil and why He appears to Faith, GDR, and myself as a fair God. My only response to that is, at least in my case, God is good.
It's not about literature, it's about reality. Why things are the way they are. It seems you can not step outside your belief and think. Just think.
As long as we are pretending, you are a bit like Job (except not yet as wiped out) and I am the God character. Shall we use the Job analogy or do you want me to act as if I am a modern-day God and have not yet created anything? So how am I supposed to explain myself to anybody? You...puny human that you are,(as am I) are shaking our fist at this God and concluding that He is evil...all with no knowledge of anything beyond what the old book says. Is that about right?
You could start by thinking like a human and asking yourself whether it's right to create humans, test them, then torture and kill them so that a few could live forever and be happy.
Would that be an ethical thing to do?
Then you can ask yourself, if a human ran that experiment do you think that he would love everyone he did it to?
But you are asking someone who is in the matrix, remember?
I'm asking you to take the red pill.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 471 by Phat, posted 12-04-2019 3:11 PM Phat has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 478 of 652 (867917)
12-04-2019 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 470 by Percy
12-03-2019 8:40 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Percy writes:
I think Tangle and I are being honest and forthright with you. We aren't hiding our reasons for rejecting your answer so that you have to guess why. We're telling you our honest reaction to your answer: it makes no sense to us.
It is not surprising that my answers don't make sense to you. At least to Tangle nothing about theism makes any sense to him. To be honest, nothing about atheism makes any sense to me. Just as I can't seem to provide any answers to you guys that makes sense, atheists can't provide and answers that make sense to me.
For example
GDR writes:
Why would a mindless process evolve to bring about creatures that are prepared to sacrifice their lives for others.?
To which ringo replies:
ringo writes:
Survival of the species.
Firstly even on a biological level it makes no sense as the soldier in question is out trying to kill other members of the species so he is selectively choose which ones to die for and which ones to kill. But more importantly when the question is asked about why evolution occurs at all the answer is evolution. To go further I replied :
GDR writes:
Where is the evidence for that? Which species would qualify?
Do you really think that a soldier who throws himself on a grenade to save his buddies is thinking that he has to keep the species going? No - He is doing it because he believes that it is the right thing to do. Even a world that is the result of mindlessness why is anything right or wrong.
From an evolutionary POV you can argue that it is all about preserving the gene pool. However, why do people sacrifice for for other creatures that are far from their gene pool.
I can accept the suggestion that all of this could have evolved but not from a non-intelligent root.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
and ringo comes back with
ringo writes:
Evolution 101.
I am not questioning the evolutionary process. The answer seems to be evolution as the final answer. The evolutionary process is magnificent in the scope of what it has produced including us. Evolution stars from single celled life. How did those cells come into existence? What process for that was required. Is there an intelligent root to the processes or is it the chance combination of chemicals? Either position is a subjective belief.
I only point that out as at least a partial explanation of why my answers make no sense. Our starting points are diametrically opposed.
I agree, as I said earlier, that suffering is a difficult question for a Christian to deal with. However, atheism has as at least as big an issue to deal with as it is ultimately nihilistic. If there is no meaning to this life then the the idea of good and bad is also meaningless. Arguing that the survival of the species as having evolved naturally makes no sense unless evolution has as its basis a transcendent and intelligent morality.
Percy writes:
I wasn't able to make sense out of this. The two sentences seem unrelated to each other, and the second sentence ends with a comma. Was there supposed to be more?
I can see your problem there. I think something may have dropped out of the post. I'll just repeat the first part and expand on that.
GDR writes:
I am simply suggesting that in a world that is subject to entropy and decay, and an evolutionary process that requires mutations to progress, we have a world where mental illness, cancer and natural disasters can evolve.
My ignorance of the mechanics of evolution is massive. (Part of the reason is that I'm prepared to accept what virtually every expert tells us and I have no agenda to argue against it.) Correct me if I'm wrong but as I understand it evolutionary changes require mutations in the genome. Presumably, if mutations can cause positive outcomes then the opposite is true as well.
I also contend that these evolutionary processes can only take place in a world where the time line flows in on direction.
So my point in all of this is my belief, contention, or probably more accurately my speculation, is that the possibility of suffering is a necessary byproduct of our existence.
Then of course the question is, "why didn't God bypass this world all together and go directly to the next world where suffering isn't an aspect of it". My belief is that in preparation for the renewed world God desired a world with creatures that have freely chosen sacrificial love of others over the love of self at the expense of others.
I understand the problem of believing that God can't be a loving god because of suffering. However I contend that there are arguments to support the idea.
1/ He has created creatures that are able to reduce suffering and from a Christian perspective calls us to dedicate our lives to that.
2/Again from a Christian perspective, we have point one confirmed by the message that we have from Jesus in the Gospels
3/ From a philosophical POV I would suggest that we do have a sense that their is ultimate meaning to life.
I have kinda run out of time so I'll just post this now.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by Percy, posted 12-03-2019 8:40 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 481 by Pressie, posted 12-05-2019 3:23 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 488 by ringo, posted 12-05-2019 10:49 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 495 by Percy, posted 12-05-2019 2:46 PM GDR has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 479 of 652 (867922)
12-05-2019 1:00 AM
Reply to: Message 468 by Tangle
12-03-2019 3:58 PM


Re: The purpose of it all
Faith writes:
but if you really consider what it means you wouldn't like the idea of living in a good world that didn't involve any conflict at all, nothing to think about, no problems to solve, no evil to vanguish.
What you're describing is heaven, the ultimate goal with no evil and no struggle. Are you saying heaven isn't, well, heaven?
I'm not describing heaven, I'm describing Eden.
You still don't understand the question.
I'm afraid I lost track of this discussion and don't really remember the question. Would you repeat it for me? Perhaps explaining how I don't get it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 468 by Tangle, posted 12-03-2019 3:58 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 480 by Tangle, posted 12-05-2019 2:50 AM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 480 of 652 (867924)
12-05-2019 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 479 by Faith
12-05-2019 1:00 AM


Re: The purpose of it all
Faith writes:
I'm not describing heaven, I'm describing Eden.
Well ok, then - What you're describing is Eden; no struggle, no death and no pain. Are you saying that paradise wasn't paradise?
But also heaven is apparently the ultimate goal with no struggle, death or pain. Are you saying heaven is full of zombies?
I'm afraid I lost track of this discussion and don't really remember the question. Would you repeat it for me? Perhaps explaining how I don't get it?
I want to know why god would do any of this at all? Either create a paradise, a world of suffering and death or a heaven to put those people in that gave him the correct experimental outcome.
I'd also like to know why he tortures and kills the things he professes to love.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 479 by Faith, posted 12-05-2019 1:00 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 482 by Faith, posted 12-05-2019 3:37 AM Tangle has replied

  
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