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Author | Topic: Christianity is Morally Bankrupt | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
I never said humans won't still have free will in heaven. Satan certainly did...why wouldn't any other Being? The difference between Adam & WEve is that they were innocent when they chose knowledge. The ones who end up in Heaven will have free will and full knowledge of the differences between ultimate good and ultimate evil. I don't know what Satan was thinking, but even he was foreknown to fall. Phat, the kind of freewill described in the Genesis tale is like the kind of freewill that you have with choosing not to breathe. Technically you have the choice to inhale or hold your breath, do you not? Technicalities aside, do you really have choice in such an instance? This is the kind of "freewill" that we're up against -- its a sham; an illusion of choice. Judas was predestined to betray Jesus... he didn't have a choice as he was selected to play a vital role (the antagonist) in the story. Same with the Pharaoh. If you don't believe me, read the scriptures for yourselves. The bible is very clear in stating that God deliberately and intentionally hardened the Pharaoh's heart with the express purpose of denying him will. How about the killing of every firstborn male child? Did they have a choice or were they dealt a shit hand for having been born: 1. First2. Male And lets use you as an example. Some people are dealt shit hands in life, would you agree? I don't have this compulsion to gamble as you have shared that you have wrestled with. You and I both have the choice not to gamble. The difference is that I don't give it any thought because it is not a temptation of mine. I know that statistically speaking the House always wins, so why throw money away in the hopes that I might get a tiny bit more? Not worth the risk to me. But your choice to abstain from the compulsion is a lot harder than mine. Now, do you agree that we both have the exact same choice to either say yes or no to the vice? Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given."Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member
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Evil already existed. quote: The Genesis fable relies on the belief that humans were responsible for creating evil... how anything can exist apart from the Maker is anyone's guess. Here's what we know... God acknowledges that He created evil.... this blaming Adam and Eve thing is a much newer invention.
God may have hardened Pharoahs heart by withdrawing His grace. Pharoah willfully chose to be stubborn due to pride, or greed, or some other aspect of evil that already existed. Evil exists as a tempering agent. If God deliberately denies someone the ability of choice then they no longer have freewill. Without freewill, we are robots who meaninglessly obey a command.
Judas was foreknown, but technically had a choice. "Then Satan entered Judas Iscariot" -- Luke 22:3 Jesus also specifically chose his Apostles, so if he foreknew Judas' guilt, then he was specifically chosen with the intention of fulfilling scripture.
The issue I am defending is the idea that God if God exists, has a definite plan which tests different people differently. If they have a problem being denied true free will, perhaps they need to learn the lesson that satan learned. One cannot freely choose a world without God if God exists. They will face the music one way or another. But what you don't seem to acknowledge is that's not actually a choice. Is it not God that imparted every sense man has? He creates in man a strong sexual desire for women but says, you can only have one, you have to first go through some arbitrary ceremony before you can consummate. But that strong desire does not diminish, does it? Is it designed for one specific couple that is only compatible for each other? No, and the temptation remains. So how is Satan the tempter but God is not? When you are the Creator of the universe and everything in it, how can anything truly have a will outside of God? It implicates the creator itself. God already admits he's created evil. He admits that he has the ability to choose people already condemned. He admits that he can change the will of people to alter an outcome. How meaningful are our choices?
No two people have the exact same set of challenges nor opportunities. It appears that the way this is all set up, life is not fair. The issue is not whether we have full free will. The issue is what we do with the choices we are given. Right. Because if you don't do what God says anyway, you're condemned to spend eternity weeping and gnashing your teeth. Again, is it meaningful to hold a knife to someone's throat and say, I will give you the opportunity to choose whatever you want. But if you choose the way I don't want you to, then I'm going to slash your throat. How meaningful is a choice made under duress? I'm not sure how anyone can refer to that as 'choice.'"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
My point was simply that what Judas did he did by personal choice and that Jesus knew what Judas was going to do by any one of the possible ways, but not supernaturally. So we can only know things about the bible from the bible, save the occasional extra-biblical account that survived the ravages of time. Everything we know about Jesus and Judas directly comes from the four gospels and you could argue some prophetic things regarding the Moshiac from the OT. We know that Jesus hand-picked his apostles. If he, as you concede, had the foreknowledge that Judas would betray him, then he purposefully chose someone as the fall guy so as to fulfill the prophetic scriptures (Books of Isaiah, Daniel, etc). That smacks of predestination and I really don't see any logical way around that. If someone is predetermined to fit a role, then how did they ever really have the choice to begin with? We also know that Judas was stricken with grief by his act of betrayal and immediately returned the money and admitted his sin. Jesus forgives the thief on the cross saying that "Today, you will see paradise." What was Judas' fate? Well, it would have been better for him to have millstone hung around his neck and be cast into the sea. Judas hanged himself because he couldn't live with the guilt and shame of his betrayal. After his penitence, he hanged himself, fell from the branch over a ledge and his guts burst open. Based on the forlorn description Jesus explained to his remaining apostles, we can conclude with a high degree of certainty that Judas is in hell... for all eternity... even though the choice was practically made for him AND even after he repented of his sin. It also said before any of this happened that "Satan entered Iscariot." So on top of all of that, he has to contend with the most cunning evil of God's creation. But you and Phat tell me that Judas had the choice... I'm sorry, but that boy never stood a chance. "Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
Every movew I make is predestined, so what? Its not the issue that God would know what we are going to do. It becomes an issue with what he is going to do even while knowing what we will do. Its entrapment. Jesus knew Judas would betray him and purposefully sought him out. That effectively removes the choice and creates the entire landscape for it to come to fruition.
We are responsible for our actions. If we violate the moral law that's our violation of the moral law. The fact that we can't help doing it because of the way the spiritual universe is constructed is absolutely irrelevant. We act freely and feel that we act freely, and that's all we need to know. Judas did what he did because he did what he did, he was responsible for it. And the Moral law that judges him did so according to its own inexorable standards TO WHICH WE ARE NOT PRIVY. And he repented of his sin which, ironically, was the whole purpose of that event to set up salvation through grace. So why didn't he receive the very grace that was promised through that act? "Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
I note that on your message against Percy's use of censorship as forum discipline, for which I thank you since I've been its primary target, you add "Hail S....."* and that sets my teeth on edge for you. That is so funny that you mentioned it because I actually inserted that purposely with you in mind wondering if we'd have this very conversation. I was just messing around with that last tidbit. F*** Satan!!! And all legions of demons with him Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given."Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine
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