Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Kof2hu's 22 species corresponding to Genesis thread
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 95 (694041)
03-21-2013 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by kofh2u
03-21-2013 12:55 PM


Re: Twenty two... not so much
I don't think the correspondence is accidental.
I understand that, and I have no doubt that such is true. But I don't find your personal assurances to be convincing, nor do I believe your arguments advance your credibility.
... or, they had simply collected the same bones we dug up in this last century.
I think the latter possibility is wanting for some support.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by kofh2u, posted 03-21-2013 12:55 PM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by kofh2u, posted 03-21-2013 2:45 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 95 (694047)
03-21-2013 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by kofh2u
03-21-2013 12:09 PM


Not 22, so what's the point...
Homo lantianensis Scientists classify Lantian Man as a subspecies of Homo erectus. Lantian Man - Wikipedia
So according to your reason for dismissing Homo Lantianensis, we should rule out counting subspecies?
Then how do you explain identifying Caucasiod, Mongoloid, and Negroid as separate parts of your 22? Those are not even sub-sub species. In fact, why aren't they all lumped in with Noah?
Let me lay out the problem with this stuff. I find that your reasoning includes confirmation bias. Things in the Bible that cannot fit with your interpretation can be summarily ignored or are simply opportunities for treating Bible text as allegory. And I then wonder what is the point.
You claim to want the Bible to be literally true. But if you achieve this by the use of allegory, then what exactly have you accomplished? Why is your use of allegory any better than what non-literalists do?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by kofh2u, posted 03-21-2013 12:09 PM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by kofh2u, posted 03-21-2013 2:32 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 65 by kofh2u, posted 03-21-2013 2:49 PM NoNukes has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 63 of 95 (694058)
03-21-2013 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by NoNukes
03-21-2013 1:36 PM


Re: Not 22, so what's the point...
1) So according to your reason for dismissing Homo Lantianensis, we should rule out counting subspecies?
2) Then how do you explain identifying Caucasiod, Mongoloid, and Negroid as separate parts of your 22?
1) ?
Subspecies are not different a species.
They are the corresponding "those sons and daughters" which Genesis refers to after designating the actual link in the genealogy to us.
Gen 5;7 And Seth lived after he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters:
2) What is to explain?
The evidence is science of the Three Racial Stocks that appeared after the mass extinction of all other kinds of man supports Genesis.
Genesis ALSO states that Noah had three branches called sons also, which is EXACTLY what now know to have been the case.
We ALSO just found out that all people living today are related tonust one man who lived about 40 thousand years ago.
That fits and corrsponds exactly with the Hpothesis, that the Genealopgy is really the list of the 22 humans in our ascent to modern man.
These three son are like the nail in the coffin for protesting against the Hypothesis.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by NoNukes, posted 03-21-2013 1:36 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by NoNukes, posted 03-21-2013 2:55 PM kofh2u has not replied
 Message 81 by NoNukes, posted 03-21-2013 11:12 PM kofh2u has not replied
 Message 84 by Eli, posted 03-22-2013 6:10 AM kofh2u has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 64 of 95 (694060)
03-21-2013 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by NoNukes
03-21-2013 1:20 PM


Re: Twenty two... not so much
But I don't find your personal assurances to be convincing, nor do I believe your arguments advance your credibility.
Using the Scientific Method removes any need to worry about my credibility.
We are not interested in me at all.We are examining a Hypothesis that says Darwin would explain the genealogy which claims 22 kinds of man are our ancient ancestors who live phenomenally and inordinately long existences beyond the imagination or capacity of men as far as we know.
We are then listing all the science evidence that has gradually come to support the 1890 theory of Darwin as applied to the Bible.
After stating that Hypothesis, we see evidence of hybridizing as Genesis claims, we see the two lines of ascent DID take place, like with Cain and Seth.
We see that all other kinds of mankind went extinct, just like in the Flood Story.
We see Noah has three sons that populated all the earth, even up to the mountain tops.
This CORRESPONDS directly to the Three Racial Stock Theory of science.
Now Science says that all men living today are genetically related to just one man who lived 40 thousand years ago, i.e., the Noah of the flood matches that.
What does your teaching of Genesis really have, except the priority of some guy two centuries ago saying what he thought the Genealogy meant????

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by NoNukes, posted 03-21-2013 1:20 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Coyote, posted 03-21-2013 3:13 PM kofh2u has replied
 Message 69 by NoNukes, posted 03-21-2013 3:16 PM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 65 of 95 (694061)
03-21-2013 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by NoNukes
03-21-2013 1:36 PM


Re: Not 22, so what's the point...
You claim to want the Bible to be literally true. But if you achieve this by the use of allegory, then what exactly have you accomplished?
I am NOT using allegory.
I am showing a correpondence between the story of human evolution told by the scientists and the genealogy read off the Bible.
I make only one assumption as an axiom, that the inordinately long lives attributed to what is presented as individuals really mean much longer durations, but that could not be so stated in the past because it was beyond belief in those tmes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by NoNukes, posted 03-21-2013 1:36 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by NoNukes, posted 03-21-2013 3:08 PM kofh2u has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 95 (694062)
03-21-2013 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by kofh2u
03-21-2013 2:32 PM


Re: Not 22, so what's the point...
What is to explain?
Are you kidding me, or are you just emulating a bag of hammers?
What I'm asking you to explain is how you arrive at twenty two without counting groupings that represent relationships that are not even sub species. After all, you are trying to advance a correspondence with 22 species.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by kofh2u, posted 03-21-2013 2:32 PM kofh2u has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 95 (694063)
03-21-2013 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by kofh2u
03-21-2013 2:49 PM


Re: Not 22, so what's the point...
I am NOT using allegory.
I am showing a correpondence between the story of human evolution told by the scientists and the genealogy read off the Bible
Nonsense.
You are using an allegory in which a flood of water corresponds to something that I cannot be bothered to learn going on with Noah's nervous system, which in turn is some part of the story of man's evolution.
You can pretend to your self that your proposal is a direct cataloging of events described in Genesis. But in actuality, the correspondence you are pushing is pure allegory.
Even if I accept that the lifetimes are not literally individual lives and that the Bible names representing species is non allegory, despite the holes in that proposition, the flood stuff is unquestionably pure allegory.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by kofh2u, posted 03-21-2013 2:49 PM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by kofh2u, posted 03-21-2013 3:24 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 68 of 95 (694065)
03-21-2013 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by kofh2u
03-21-2013 2:45 PM


Three? races of man
This CORRESPONDS directly to the Three Racial Stock Theory of science.
I've told you several times that science does not agree with your claim of three races.
Why are you ignoring what science actually claims, all the while claiming to follow science?
Here's the reference to the Coon and Garn article titled On the Number of Races of Mankind again:
Just a moment...
You might try reading it this time, even though it refutes your claims. That would be what scientists would do, not just ignore it as you seem inclined to do.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by kofh2u, posted 03-21-2013 2:45 PM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by kofh2u, posted 03-21-2013 3:44 PM Coyote has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 95 (694068)
03-21-2013 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by kofh2u
03-21-2013 2:45 PM


Re: Twenty two... not so much
We are not interested in me at all.
Wrong. You are of primary interest here.
My primary critique is of your thought processes and methods. Bad thought processes reach a correct result only by accident. It is secondary, and a much easier task to show that the accident did not occur, and you did not achieve a correct result.
Using the Scientific Method removes any need to worry about my credibility.
Assuming you are following the process you describe in this thread, you are not using the scientific method. Coyote was on the right track, but he stops short of what I conclude, which is that what you are doing gives Apologetics a bad name.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by kofh2u, posted 03-21-2013 2:45 PM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by kofh2u, posted 03-21-2013 3:32 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 73 by kofh2u, posted 03-21-2013 3:37 PM NoNukes has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 70 of 95 (694070)
03-21-2013 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by NoNukes
03-21-2013 3:08 PM


Re: Not 22, so what's the point...
You are using an allegory in which a flood of water corresponds to something that I cannot be bothered to learn going on with Noah's nervous system, which in turn is some part of the story of man's evolution.
OH...
I assumed you were referring to our present discussion of the genealogy and the one-to-one corrspondence with the paleontology reported in the latest book on that subject.
In regard to the Flood story, I am reasoning that the Bible writer would have had no other alternative in telling the actual story we know that follows after the 22 evolutions but to use metaphor.
They woulkd have had to "liken" the population explosion Out-of-Africa to a virtual Flood of peoplke who after a total extinction of Neanderthal man would have populated the whole earth up to the mountain tops.
That the metaphor itself was an impossible report on the face of it, such an interpretation is warranted since it parallels the actual events.
This view that the Flood was metaphor was also used by the scientist who discovered the we are all related to just one man who lived 40,000 years ago when Modern man actually did migrate around the world, Out-of-Africa:
SCIENCE:
Christopher Stringer and Peter Andrews proposes that modern humans evolved from archaic Homo sapiens 200,000-150,000 years ago only in Africa and then some of them migrated into the rest of the Old World replacing all of the Neanderthals and other late archaic Homo sapiens beginning around 100,000 years ago.
If this interpretation of the fossil record is correct, all people today share a relatively modern African ancestry. All other lines of humans that had descended from Homo erectus presumably became extinct.
From this view, the regional anatomical differences that we see among humans today are recent developments--evolving mostly in the last 40,000 years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by NoNukes, posted 03-21-2013 3:08 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Taq, posted 03-21-2013 3:30 PM kofh2u has replied
 Message 85 by Eli, posted 03-22-2013 6:14 AM kofh2u has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(2)
Message 71 of 95 (694072)
03-21-2013 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by kofh2u
03-21-2013 3:24 PM


Re: Not 22, so what's the point...
I assumed you were referring to our present discussion of the genealogy and the one-to-one corrspondence with the paleontology reported in the latest book on that subject.
So what happens when number 23 or 24 are found, or evidence emerges that what was once H. erectus is actually two separate species? At one time there was only 1 transitional species known. What makes you think the count will stop, or that the categories are even accurate to begin with?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by kofh2u, posted 03-21-2013 3:24 PM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by kofh2u, posted 03-21-2013 3:42 PM Taq has replied
 Message 86 by NoNukes, posted 03-22-2013 10:18 AM Taq has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 72 of 95 (694073)
03-21-2013 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by NoNukes
03-21-2013 3:16 PM


Re: Twenty two... not so much
KOFH;
We are not interested in me at all.
Nonuke:
Wrong. You are of primary interest here.
?
You don't know anything about me except what you read in my posts.
I remind you again that the stated Hypothesis that the 22 names in the genealogy correspond to the 22 now extinct humans in our ascent Out-of-Africa.
This Hypothesis has been followed by a list of Facts that support this since Darwin first suggested such possible thing could correspond to the Bible.
What EXACTLY is it that you believe matters beyond that argument???
And, why are YOU so wacky as to think that your point of view with zero support, except your interpretation is different???

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by NoNukes, posted 03-21-2013 3:16 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by NoNukes, posted 03-21-2013 5:29 PM kofh2u has not replied
 Message 79 by NoNukes, posted 03-21-2013 5:36 PM kofh2u has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 73 of 95 (694074)
03-21-2013 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by NoNukes
03-21-2013 3:16 PM


Re: Twenty two... not so much
Using the Scientific Method removes any need to worry about my credibility.
Assuming you are following the process you describe in this thread, you are not using the scientific method.
?
How so?
What I see here is you want to say I am wrong because my thinking does not meet your specifications somehow... which is mutual of course.
I must conclude you are stranger to a logical and rational explantion if that explanation opposes your own views.
Since that seems to be the case, it is your argument that my hypothesis has no support because I am a weak minded thinker regardless of the list of corrsponding science events.
LOL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by NoNukes, posted 03-21-2013 3:16 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by NoNukes, posted 03-21-2013 5:47 PM kofh2u has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 74 of 95 (694075)
03-21-2013 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Taq
03-21-2013 3:30 PM


Re: Not 22, so what's the point...
So what happens when number 23 or 24 are found, or evidence emerges that what was once H. erectus is actually two separate species? At one time there was only 1 transitional species known. What makes you think the count will stop, or that the categories are even accurate to begin with?
What happens whenever the Facts oppose ANY hypothesis???
I am interested in how hard head you people are right now when the Facts support everything I have been saying.
The situation here and now is that the church interpretation of Genesis is wrong because of all these facts I have demonstrted, but that does not mean you have blinked an eye lid, but you remain staunchly either anti-bible or anti-evolution.
You have asked me a question you need ask YOURSELF.
"What happens now, when YOU see that the very evolution of man matches what the Bible says," if you will accept it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Taq, posted 03-21-2013 3:30 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Taq, posted 03-21-2013 4:00 PM kofh2u has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 75 of 95 (694076)
03-21-2013 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Coyote
03-21-2013 3:13 PM


Re: Three? races of man
kofh:
This CORRESPONDS directly to the Three Racial Stock Theory of science.
coyote;
I've told you several times that science does not agree with your claim of three races.
And I have told YOU it does.
Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Coyote, posted 03-21-2013 3:13 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Coyote, posted 03-21-2013 4:29 PM kofh2u has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024