Curse of the Law

Paul and the law seems to be a bit off topic for the Ephesians thread and worthy of a thread of its own. A new thread will give us more dancing room.Did Paul's authentic letters teach that Christ's death abolished God's Law (Written Torah) or Jewish laws (Oral Torah)?My contention is that Paul's authentic letters did not present the idea that Christ's death abolished any written or oral legal system or religious rules.Epistles considered authentic and the order in which they were possibly written: (Timelines differ)
Estimated dating is 50-60 CE.First Thessalonians
Galatians
First Corinthians
Romans
Second Corinthians
Philippians
PhilemonBible scholars are split on whether Ephesians is an authentic Pauline letter or not. I feel that Ephesians 2:14-16 is a good reason not to accept that Ephesians (80-100 CE) was written by Paul. Which brings us to the point of this thread.

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In the epistles considered to be authentically Pauline, did Paul teach that Christ's death abolished the Mosaic or Jewish laws? Did he present that Christ's purpose was to reconcile Jews and Gentiles as it seems to claim in Ephesians?My contention is that he did not. Paul's claim is that Christ redeemed them from the curse of the law. So what is a curse?I feel that the contrast between divine empowerment and divine bondage is the basis for Paul's arguments. A curse prevents a person from living a life of freedom and abundance and comes as a result of sin against God. I feel that Paul's position in his letters is that those who believe in Jesus are saved from being rendered powerless by God for wrong behavior, not from any legal system itself or the consequences of wrong behavior per that legal system.He didn't claim that Christ's death abolished any portion of a written legal system or that God's Law was cursed. He considered God's Law to be holy and spiritual.Bible Study would be the appropriate place for this debate.

Thread copied here from the Curse of the Law thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

Good topic, PD...and one that will force me to study...which I need to do, anyway.C.R.Stam said this: Things That DifferI agree with Stams teaching and logic.Edited by Phat, :

I'm short of time but there are numerous quotes I could use from the Pauline letters or the Gospels.Jesus fulfilled all the law and the prophets. The message is that it isn't about keeping a set of laws but about living a life that is driven by a heart that loves our neighbours as ourselves.If we are motivated by a loving heart there is no need to maintain a set of laws such as we see in the OT. The Hebrew laws fulfilled a purpose in giving the Jews their distinctiveness but Jesus and by extension Paul made the point that God is a god for all and not just for the Jews. (Read Romans 2).Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

What you miss is that Paul is telling us that Christ personified the Truth which directly corresponded to the Reality of Jews practicing a cycle of breaking Laws, gifting the all-too-eager-to-receive priesthood, and then, repeating the same behaviors over again, as if they were even and had paid up their debt.It is analogous to what Christianity had become after the first 1000 years, when people went to confession, tithed or bought amulets, assumed they had paid their debt to god up to date, then went out Friday night and repeated the sexual depravity as usual.

This is the point of this debate.In the epistles considered to be authentically Pauline, did Paul teach that Christ's death abolished the Mosaic or Jewish laws? Did he present that Christ's purpose was to reconcile Jews and Gentiles as it seems to claim in Ephesians?This debate is about what Paul actually wrote for his audience.In the Book of Romans Paul seems to switch between referring to any law at all to referring to the Torah. His point being that no law can justify.Even though no law is a means to salvation, that doesn't mean that mankind can do away with their legal systems. Law in the Book of Romans Part 2I don't think "under law" is singling out the Torah and in no way says it is abolished. No law is a source of justification or salvation. That doesn't mean we don't follow the laws per their respective culture or society for day to day life.Paul didn't abolish anything other than the belief that one could acquire justification or salvation through written laws.I don't feel Paul would have written Ephesians 2:14-15. It goes against his own arguments.I've made it clear that Paul clearly presented that no legal system or set of rules can justify one before God. So we don't need to keep rehashing that issue. It isn't the point of the debate.Rules and regulations whether written or unwritten are necessary when people interact. Christian churches have rules. Religions have rules. Communities have rules. Just because these rules are not a means of justification or salvation, doesn't mean they are abolished or can be ignored in daily life.Do you understand the point I'm making concerning Paul?
Paul didn't claim that Christ's death abolished any commandments or ordinances.
Paul claimed that Christ's death redeemed them from the Curse of the Torah, not the Torah.

Didn't miss it. The debate isn't about justification or salvation.Did Paul's authentic letters teach that Christ's death abolished God's Law (Written Torah) or Jewish laws (Oral Torah)?My contention is that Paul's authentic letters did not present the idea that Christ's death abolished any written or oral legal system or religious rules.

This is from Romans 3.

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9 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better ? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." 13 "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips." 14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness." 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 ruin and misery mark their ways, 17 and the way of peace they do not know." 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes." 19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

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As I said earlier the law was a Jewish thing which was a foreshadowing of the message of Christ. In the last line Paul is saying that the point of the law was to provide a pointer in the right direction and the understanding that there is such a thing as right and wrong and that it really does matter.This is from Romans 10

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4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. 5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 "or 'Who will descend into the deep?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming:

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The faith that Paul is talking about isn’t about giving intellectual assent to the deity of Christ, but is about having a heart that loves the message of peace, love, forgiveness and charity that Jesus espoused. Absolutely. There is no real connection between the two in my view. As Jesus said, render unto Caesar what is Caesar. We are meant to have organized communities. Yes and no IMHO. I think we have to read the Torah through the lens of the Gospels. The point is that the followers of Jesus are supposed to enact the world that God desires us to have. That would be the world we everyone truly does love their neighbour as themselves and thus there is no need for any law. Love of God and neighbour fulfills all the laws and when we look at much of what is in the Torah we can see that what was there has nothing to do with loving God or neighbour and we can either decide that God only wanted that for a time or that it was a human invention. In my view it is the latter as it represents what is still true in our lives today, in that sometimes we get it right and other times not so much.So I agree that Christ’s death didn’t abolish the commandments but simply put them in context. It isn’t about what we do, but about the motivation of our hearts that results in what we do.

In the prefered book (your so called authentic boos) book of Galatians Paul writes: "For I through the law have died to the law that I might live to God." (Gal. 2:19) Paul speaks of his own personal experience here. In the realm of the resurrected, living and available Christ, Paul has "died to the law" .I submit that the phrases "died to the law" and "abolished the law in commandments and ordinances" basically the same thought. And this would make the "suspicioned" letter - Ephesians simple repeat the "prefered" letter Galatians. Whether he says for him Christ has abolished the law in His crucifixion or that Paul has died to the law through Christ's crucifixion the teaching is virtually the same.Furthermore, Paul, in the accepted unsuspicious Galatian epistle, explains how he scolded the senior apostle Peter for hypocrisy. Before some disciples came from James in Jerusalem, Peter ate with the Gentile believers (in violation to some ordinance, I assume). After these visiting brothers came from James Peter was embarressed to be caught disobeying the Jewish ordinance. He therefore withdrew from the Gentile believers.Paul called up on this hypocrisy. And Paul says "For if I build again the things which I have destroyed, I prove myself to bve a transgressor." (Gal. 2:18) What are the things which Paul or Peter have destroyed ?
The things destroyed are the binding Mosiac ordinances and probably the Oral Torah as well. In preaching the grace of Christ for salvation they "destroyed" the principle of justification through law keeping. Paul is saying that Peter's hypocrisy is building again those things which the Christian apostles "destroyed" .The Paul speaks for himself is he cannot speak completely for Peter - "For I through the law have died to the law that I might live to God."The dichotomy here is Live To God verses Living By the Law's Ordinances. Paul, as a representative believer in Jesus Christ, has died to the law for the express purpose that he might live to God.In the preferred book of Romans it is clear that Paul does not regard the law as evil in itself. It is holy and spiritual and good.
Now all things abolished in Christ are abolished because they are sinful. And not all things a Christian dies to he dies to because they are sinful.He dies to them because they are a distraction from Christ.
The entire letter of Galatians is about Paul trying to rescue the distracted believers in the Galatian churches back from law keeping to Christ living.Paul had died to the law. Paul was laboring to help the Galatians to realize that they too had died to the law, though it be spiritual and holy and good. "So then the law is holy, and the commandment holy and righteous and good." (Rom. 8:12) Purpledawn's list I will refer to the "prefered" letters of Paul. It really puzzles me why PD singles out this passage in such a way.
But some of the argument I have at least understood.The passage says that Christ is our peace - refering to Jewish and Gentile Christians - " For He Himself is our peace ..." Christ was certainly the peace between Peter and his six accompanying brothers and the seekers in the house of Cornelius in Acts chapter 10. Christ HIMSELF is the peace as He as the resurrected man breathed the Holy Spirit into the disciples in John 20 and said Peace be to you (John 20:19,21) "He who has made both one and has broken down the middle wall of partition, the enmity .." In Acts 10 didn't Christ break down the middle wall of partition between the Jewish believers and the seeking Gentile believers? Of course He did or Peter would not have entered the house to preach to them.The question is what is Paul writing in Ephesians 2:14,15 which did not at least begin to occur, strongly, in Acts 10 ?The enmity which Paul says Christ broke down was broken down in the dream of Peter just before he entered Cornelius's house. I refer to the dream where God three times commanded Peter to rise and eat. And three times he protested that he never ate any unclean animals. God said that he had made them clean and he should no longer refer to them as unclean.This vision recorded in Acts 10:9-16. Please read those 8 verses. Obviously God was showing Peter the breaking down of the partition between Jews and Gentiles, symbolically portrayed by clean animals to eat verses unclean animals to eat.So what was Paul writing in Ephesians 2:14,15 which God had not already given the leading apostle Peter a clear indication of as to the divine intention?Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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Paul speaks of his own personal experience here. In the realm of the resurrected, living and available Christ, Paul has "died to the law" .

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The problem is that the word "the" isn't there. Paul switches between referring to the Torah and referring to law in general. IOW, he died to using law of any sort to gain justification. He didn't stop following the laws and ordinances. He changed his mind set as to their purpose.

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Whether he says for him Christ has abolished the law in His crucifixion or that Paul has died to the law through Christ's crucifixion the teaching is virtually the same.

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Very different issue to abolish the law or die to law. Paul still followed Torah.

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What are the things which Paul or Peter have destroyed ?
The things destroyed are the binding Mosiac ordinances and probably the Oral Torah as well. In preaching the grace of Christ for salvation they "destroyed" the principle of justification through law keeping. Paul is saying that Peter's hypocrisy is building again those things which the Christian apostles "destroyed" .

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They destroyed the principle, not the law. I think Peter's issue was political, not a return for purposes of justification.

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The passage says that Christ is our peace - refering to Jewish and Gentile Christians - " For He Himself is our peace ..."

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Christ was certainly the peace between Peter and his six accompanying brothers and the seekers in the house of Cornelius in Acts chapter 10. Christ HIMSELF is the peace as He as the resurrected man breathed the Holy Spirit into the disciples in John 20 and said Peace be to you (John 20:19,21)

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"He who has made both one and has broken down the middle wall of partition, the enmity .."

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In Acts 10 didn't Christ break down the middle wall of partition between the Jewish believers and the seeking Gentile believers? Of course He did or Peter would not have entered the house to preach to them.

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I don't think Paul saw overall peace between Jews and Greeks. In reading "A History Of The Jews" by Paul Johnson, I don't find that the wall came down between Greeks and Jews after Christ's death. It actually got worse. The whole sentence doesn't reflect Paul's time or writings.

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This vision recorded in Acts 10:9-16. Please read those 8 verses. Obviously God was showing Peter the breaking down of the partition between Jews and Gentiles, symbolically portrayed by clean animals to eat verses unclean animals to eat.

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I'm looking at Paul's writings and their consistency, not really other writings. Acts is supposedly a later writing about 80-100AD. The same time frame as Ephesians.

IF switching is his thought, any possible switching does not EXCLUDE the law of Moses.RcV - "For I through law have died to law that I might live to God." So you are saying that law THROUGH which Paul has died is not the same as law TO which he has died.You write below: So you believe that Paul died to the Code of Hammurabi through the Code of Hammurabi.But though Paul has died to the Code of Hammurabi Paul is still following the Torah.Does that make sense ?In Galatians 2:19 it makes far more sense that law THROUGH which Paul died is the same law TO which Paul died.
That has to be the law of Moses.I don't think it was "through" any OTHER law that Paul died to the law. Rather it was through the Law of Moses that Paul died TO the Law of Moses. All of the Levitical sacrifices were types and pointers to Christ. Therefore THROUGH the atonement of the antitype Christ, Paul died to the ordinances of the Torah.How anyone believe that it was through the Code of Hammurabi Paul died to law?Yet all the evidence is that he means through the Mosiac law he died to law.Paul writes also that Christ is the end of the law in the prefered book of Romans: "For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes." (Rom. 10:4) "For Christ is the end of the law unto righeousness to eveyone who believes. (v.4)

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For Moses writes concerning the righteousness which is out of the law, the man who does them shall live by them." (v.5) How could Christ be the end of the code of Hammurabi ?But Christ as the reality of all the typology of the Levitical sacrifices is the end of the law in that His atonement justifies man forever who come to God through Him. The believer is put in a righteous position before God as if he had never sinned.I do not believe Paul meant "through the law of the Hittites, I have died to the law of the Hittites."Nor do I believe Paul meant "through the law of the Assyrians, I have doed to the law of Moses."What makes most sense is "I through law [of Moses] have died to law of Moses". Paul followed the Spirit Who is Christ.In the book of Galatians it is a mistake to separate Christ from the Spirit.Concerning himself Paul says " ... it is Christ who lives in me ..." (Gal. 20) Concerning the Galatians he says "O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you ... This only I wish to learn from you, Did you receive the Spirit out of the works of law or out of the hearing of faith ? (3:2) Paul's teaching was that Christ was the indwelling Holy Spirit and that Christians should "Walk by the Spirit" ( 5:16) To the extent that the Galatians walked more and more by the Spirit, Christ was formed in them. That is Christ was taking shape in them. "My children, with whom I travail again in birth until Christ is formed in you." (Gal. 4:19) Learning to walk by the Spirit was learning to walk by and in Christ. And this way Christ whom they had already received, was being formed in them. I can go along with that.But the utterance given to the apostle is that Christ has abolished the law of the commandments in ordinances.In another post I demonstrated that Paul was accmodating toward "weaker" brethren who still clung to some of the dietary ordinances.Justification by law keeping was made obsolete through the redemption of Christ.Some were slow in realizing the new covenant of walking by the Spirit.And Paul said the saints should not judge one another but receive one another as Christ has received them. I don't know what this is suppose to mean.The issue in the house of Cornelius seems a matter of religion.But you believe whatever you want to believe. "Overall" may mean in the world. Paul is addressing the EKKLESIA, the church. He is not addressing the world that Jews and Gentiles will in the world be at peace with one another.The PEACE is in the church which is the one new man. That is a new humanity - a humanity with God in it.You are talking as if from the standpoint of being in the world.Where I meet there is the breaking down of the partition between Jewish and Gentile because we both as focused on Christ being all in all. What OUGHT to be and in many cases what WAS was not the same.We are talking about what the apostle taught.And not all of us have fallen into the degradation that you speak of.The problems in the churches in Galatia do not mean that there is no risen Christ and no Spirit of Christ to walk by.Rather some of the believers must overcome and rise to normalcy in Christ.So what Paul Johnson may have pointed out do not alter the truth of the Gospel.Nor will we dumb down the Gospel in order to accomodate for immature Christian living, much less worldly attitudes of unbelievers. And there is still tension between Jew and Gentile in the world.In the one new man we are learning to live in the new humanity of peace between Jewish believers and Gentile believers.We seek what is normal - "For as many as have been baptised into Christ have put on Christ. There cannot be Jew nor Greek, there cannot be slave nor free man, there cannot be male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

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And if you are of Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise." (Gal. 3:17-19)The Christian should seek what OUGHT to be and rise to be an overcomer.A Christian should not dumb down the high revelation of God to accomodate for the world's degradation. So what in terms of what God has said ?
So what in terms of us following Christ ? "[YOU] ... follow Me" says Jesus.This tragedy does not make there no Christ, no Spirit, no one new man, no church, no new covenant and no ones who overcome.I do not make light of Jewish misfortune. But Israel and her covenant did not disappear because of the Babylonian Captivity. And whatever world history dealt the Jews it does not mean the disappearance of the New Testament. Predictions of the degradation of the church were found in both Peter's and Paul's epistles.As well, Jesus predicted apostasy.These things do not destroy the truth. They call some to overcome.Just as Elijah complained that he was the ONLY one left faithful to God, God told him that He had 7,000 who had not bowed the knee to Baal.God reserves for Himself in every age those who overcome and rise to a level of the normal.And the church of Christ is glorious. Some of us Christians are overjoyed to be a part of her - Jew and non-Jew.Most of what you are writing here is subtle accusation against the Christian church.Maybe it is not so subtle.But though they try, the gates of Hades will not prevail against the church which Christ builds. I am considering the whole Bible - the plenary revelation of the Scripture as a whole.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Purpledawn wrote: What Paul told us: Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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So you believe that Paul died to the Code of Hammurabi through the Code of Hammurabi.

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But though Paul has died to the Code of Hammurabi Paul is still following the Torah.

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Does that make sense ?

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In Galatians 2:19 it makes far more sense that law THROUGH which Paul died is the same law TO which Paul died.
That has to be the law of Moses.

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Paul's argument is that no law has the ability to bring about justification. He isn't addressing any law's ability to regulate behavior. Two different issues.He isn't trying to present that only the Torah is not a means to justification, but any law or rule whether Roman, Hammurabi, Christian, Catholic, etc. That doesn't mean that these laws or rules are not necessary to regulate a group's behavior. Galatians - Part 6Through in this sense is used to indicate exposure to a specified set of conditions.While in an environment in which law was the governing principle (through law), Paul realized that he had to renounce (die to) law as the ground upon which he would be justified by God.Paul did not claim that any laws were nullified as a means to regulate a group's behavior. He rejected the principle of law as a basis upon which to be justified in the sight of God. Paul was supposedly also a Roman citizen.

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The issue in the house of Cornelius seems a matter of religion.

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There are politics in the work place, the church, etc. It was probably more about staying in good with the visiting group than justification before God. Appearances.

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In another post I demonstrated that Paul was accmodating toward "weaker" brethren who still clung to some of the dietary ordinances.

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Romans 14 isn't about abolishing anything. Not sure how it supports anything contrary to what I've presented.

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Justification by law keeping was made obsolete through the redemption of Christ.

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Exactly! But Christ's death did not remove any law's ability to regulate a group's behavior.IOW, anyone who wants to take on the full mantle of Judaism (or variations thereof) and want to follow all the rules and traditions of the group can do so because those rules still exist. They weren't abolished.Same goes for Christianity. Christianity developed its own rules of order and worship.Show me that the author of Ephesians (2:15) is referring to justification only when he speaks of abolishing commandments and ordinances. Commentaries don't present that idea.

I only have time this morning to read this far and respond this far.I agree that justification to eternal life and practical regulation for daily ethics are not distinct.But Paul is writing that though there is some benefit to some regulation through law keeping it cannot help in the building up of the church. So his full attention is to walking by the Spirit and living in union with the indwelling Christ.It is a shame that you discard as suspicious certain letters of Paul because those very letters could be effectivly used to establish your own point.For example, the way Paul speaks of the law in First Timothy that it can be used "lawfully." "But we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully and know this, that the law is not enacted for a righteous man but for the lawless and unruly ..." (1 Tim. 1:8,9) Aha! The law of Moses is GOOD! And the law of Moses should be used lawfully. This is similar of course, to Paul saying in Romans 7:12 - "So then the law is holy, and the commandment holy and righteous and good." Now, aside from eternal justification, and pertaining to the daily walk that establishes a life useful for building up the church, it is still not law keeping but walking by the indwelling Holy Spirit - "But this I say, Walk by the Spirit and you shall by no means fulfill the lust of the flesh." (Gal. 5:16) This is not "Be JUSTIFIED forever by the Spirit". This is not a exhortation about how to be justified before God for eternal redemption. This is an exhortation about the daily WALK for the healthy church life.Step by step the believers must learn to WALK by the Spirit. The law of Moses is holy and spiritual and the commandment is good. And the law must be used lawfully. But the Christians in the churches in Galatia must learn to "Walk by the Spirit ..."Now, in your "suspicioned" letter of Colossians Paul speaks of ordinances as INEFFECTIVE in terms of God's economy. Right here:I am tempted to use CAPS as if shouting. But I am trusting that you get the point here: "If you have died with Christ from the elements of the world, WHY, as living in the world, do you subject yourselves to ordinances:

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Do not handle, nor taste, nor touch, ( Regarding things which are all to perish when used) according to the comandments and teachings of men ?

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Such things indeed have a reputation of wisdom in self-imposed worship and lowliness and severe treatment of the body, but are not of any value against the indulgence of the flesh." (Colossians 2:20-23) Ordinances have reputations. Laws such as, do not handle, touch, taste have a reputation of wisdom. But they are not effective for the level of rightoeusness that the normal church life needs for its building up.There is really no argument here. You can say "Well, we don't believe that Colossians is an authentic letter from Paul." Your problem and not mine. And I will probably come back to Colossians for other's sake.So we find pretty much the same concept in your "preferred" letter of Galatians. "If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit." (Gal. 5:15) IE. If you were born again by the Spirit let us continue to WALK daily by the same Spirit.IE. If you were justified forever by the Spirit then let us continue WALK step by step in our daily lives by the same Spirit.The exact same thought is expressed in 3:2 - "This only I wish to learn from you, Did you receive the Spirit out of the works of law or out of the hearing of faith?

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Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? (3:2) Without contraversy, those JUSTIFIED forever are perfect in position before God. God looks upon them and sees His Son Jesus Christ as their righteousness. But being forgiven is not an end in itself in the new covenant.To be "perfected" they must go on by the means of the same Spirit by which they were regenerated. "Having BEGUN by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?"The flesh being utilized to achieve Christian "perfection" in this context is Law Keeping - Moses style. Keeping the Law of Moses was not the way they were born again or redeemed or justified. And keeping the Law of Moses is NEITHER the way the disciples will be "perfected" .To attempt to be perfected in the flesh by fleshly adherence even to the GOOD law of Moses, was for the Galatian Christians to be "bewitched". "O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, ... ?" (Gal. 3:1) Your other comments I will have to consider latter.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I agree that codes, laws, rules of vartious kinds are good to regulate people somewhat or a group of people.However, the church cannot be built up by any living except the living of walking by the Holy Spirit.Laws may regulate the outward action. But it is only the inward ruling of the Spirit of Christ which touches first the inner motive. You act because that is really now what you ARE. This is not a performance. This is Christ Himself living in you.Take this thought and compare it to the teaching of Jesus in Matthew. "You have heard that it was said, "You shall not commit adultery." But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman to lust after her has already commmited adultery with her in his heart." (Matt. 5:27,28) Yes, the Torah commanded "You shall not commit adultery". And I am sure that other cultures had a similar law in some instances. But when the Son of God comes He makes His command more penetrating. It is not just the outward ACT of adultery God is concerned with. It is more so the inner motive which invisible to the world LED to the adultery to begin with - the hidden innermost lust in the imagination.Do you understand ? Christ made the moral law more penetrating, more subjective, more radical piercing beyond just the act and touching the inclination.This is a law changing what one IS. And it requires the Christ Himself in His divinely perfected humanity be made available to fuse with, blend with, mingle with the disciple.To touch now beyond the action and transform the imagination, the inclination, the leaning of the heart He must come and abide within His followers: "Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23) The Triune God - the Father and the Son as the mysterious divine "WE" will come INTO the lover of Jesus and make an abode with him.But HOW can the Father and the Son as the divine "WE" make an abode in the lover of Jesus ? The apostle Paul helps us to understand in his great chapter on resurrection - First Corinthians 15:45 " ... the last Adam [Christ] became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) As "life giving Spirit" Jesus with Whom is the Father, is in a form in which He can be imparted into man. He, in His resurrection state, can be dispensed into man, uniting with man's innermost being. He can literally make an abode with the believers.In this way, Christ Himself as the resurrected and living Person fuses and blends with the believer to be in her a law of His own life. "When Christ our life is manifested, then you also will be manifested with Him in glory." (Col. 3:4)

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"For to me, to live is Christ ..." (Phil. 1:21)

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Jesus - "Because I live [in resurrection] you also shall live." (John 14:19) Regulartion of an outward rule is inneffective. The believer needs Jesus Christ as her life. That is Jesus Christ as "life giving Spirit" GIVES Jesus to be our life.That is Jesus, in resurrection, in a form in which He is available is COMPOUNDED into man's life.Is this an instantaneous matter? No. It is a matter of gradual growth and transformation AFTER one has received Jesus Christ in His pneumatic form for being born again. I repeat your comment for emphasis.For a "good society" people can benefit by regulations. Religious regulations can be a pain. But they also can be a help at times to prevent society from sliding morally downhill completely.But Christ and His faithful apostles tought the need beyond regulations. Another life is needed. A perfect life that can be compounded with our life. This Jesus came to do and CAN do.Now, previously we discussed much from Romans and Ephesians. Paul died with Christ. Paul was raised with Christ. The old man is crucified with Christ. Through Christ the believer can put to death the practices of the body. The believers can be discharged from the law or from law. The believer can be died to the law, etc. etc. etc.Now I say that none of this can be possible if Christ is not raised from the dead.If Christ is not raised from the dead - we cannot be "crucified with Him." If Christ is not raised from the dead, we cannot be buried with Him. If no resurrection of Jesus, there is no death to the law, a law, law, etc. or any way you prefer to say it.If no resurrection of Christ there is not IDENTIFICATION with Christ in any way that could practically benefit us.The death of Christ which also kills off the germs in us - is IN the Spirit of the resurrected Christ.The co- crucifixion with Christ is IN the Holy Spirit who is given to those who believe the Lord Jesus has been raised.The co-burial, co-ascension, co-reigning, co-victory, co-overcoming, co-righteousness, co-glorification is only available to us in the resurrected Christ.If Christ is dead, buried, and gone then the Christian faith is TOTALLY, I say TOTALLY vain and a pitiful vanity.The rich contents of what Christ has done and obtained are available to us as "the bountiful supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ" - [color=ornage] "For I know that for me this will turn out to salvation though your petition and the bountiful supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ." (Phil. 1:19) The ingredients of the Spirit of Jesus Christ contains all the effective work that He has done. Paul needs the prayers of his fellow believers, for sure. But Paul needs the rich and bountiful supply that is the ingredients of the Spirit of Jesus Christ. "The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) You must understand "life giving Spirit" in this way:Life giving is God giving.
Life giving is Redemption giving.
Life giving is Death to the law - giving.
Life giving is co-death with Jesus - giving.Life giving is Jesus giving.
Life giving is "new creation" giving.
Life giving is "absoluteness to God" - giving.Life giving is oneness giving, consecration giving, even faith giving.
Life giving is endurance giving, divine love giving, brotherly love giving.Life giving is transformation giving, sanctification giving, conformation giving.Life giving Spirit means the man Jesus is made available to be GIVEN into man's very being. This is supernatural. This is beyond "religion." This is beyong any invention of human philosophical imagination.This is the Son and the Father as "life giving Spirit" coming to impart the divine "WE" (John 14:23) into man's being.This is not giving a regulation. This is giving God Himself, the Regulator into man's being. And it is accomplished through man's faith plus the faithfulness of Christ.Life giving Spirit is the giving of Christ in response to this: "That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith." (Eph. 3:17) By faith we can actually take the resurrected, living and available Jesus as our own life. We exercise faith to gradually let Him become everything to us. And God is FAITHFUL and to dispense Christ into every chamber of our hearts.Some may say all this is not the point. They might say that this is not the topic. But it is quite related.qs That doesn't mean that these laws or rules are not necessary to regulate a group's behavior. [/qs]For the fulfilling of God's purpose, God must dispense the resurrected and living Christ in His available form as "life giving Spirit" into our hearts - into ALL of our hearts.Yes, some religious regulation may help us to have a better society.But for the building up of the organic house of God, the habitation of God in spirit, some who are "called out" must be grounded and rooted in the resurrected living Jesus. They must be rooted - to draw up all the nutients as a plant. And they must be grounded - to be built up as a living building. And they must go from forgiveness, through dispensing, to being filled unto the fullness of God. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.